Both Sides of the Desk - Episode 4: Scott Logic / Altitude Foundation

BOTH SIDES OF THE DESK
Brought to you by Newcastle Helix.

One boss. One employee. Talk work culture from Both Sides of the Desk.

What happens when a private company wants to take CSR a little further and set up a charitable foundation? Amazing work is done - but there’s also a culture clash.

In this episode, host Charlie Charlton is joined for a candid discussion about this very predicament by Scott Logic’s Chief Strategy Officer Graham Odds and Colin Ferguson, General Manager of Altitude Foundation. In a bizarre turn of events following the financial crash, the software development company established a techy charity to support social mobility.

The trio chats about the challenges of sustaining your values, embedding Corporate Social Responsibility (CSR), and how a mutually beneficial relationship can diversify your workforce and fill talent pipelines - through fun.

From hybrid working to digital networks and attitude to work, the pair don’t always agree, but they both share the same value-driven approach - which is a powerful thread that runs through everything at their shared Newcastle Helix office. 

Join Charlie, Graham and Colin in this passionate and lively discussion.


CREDITS:

In conversation: Graham Odds (Chief Strategy Officer, Scott Logic) and Colin Ferguson (General Manager, Altitude Foundation).

Producer/Presenter/Editor: Charlie Charlton 

Camera/Director: Chris Taylor 

Camera/Editor: Jordan McDonald 

Sound Producer: Andy Bell, Blast Studios 

Social Producer: Natalie Eminae, OCOCO 

Media Exec Producers: Newcastle Helix Partnership + John Seager 

In collaboration with Di Gates, Connection Heroes 

Filmed on location in The Lumen Building, Newcastle Helix Big thanks to the whole community of the Helix Innovation District in Newcastle-upon-Tyne, England.

You can also see Charlie Charlton and her guests in action:

https://www.youtube.com/@newcastlehelix2403


FURTHER READING:
Altitude Foundation Impact Report 2023:https://altitudefoundation.org/news/2149/

Digital Exclusion: https://evidencehub.northeast-ca.gov.uk/digital-exclusion-in-the-north-east-lep-area

Connect with Newcastle Helix:

• Website: https://www.newcastlehelix.com/
• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/newcastle-helix/
• X: https://x.com/newcastlehelix
• Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/newcastlehelix/
• Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/newcastlehelix/
• Email: info@newcastlehelix.com

Thanks for listening to Both Sides of the Desk. Don't forget to subscribe, rate, and join the conversation!

Chapters

• 0:00 Intro: Charlie Charlton is caught between Both Sides of the Desk.
• 0:45 “They’re different beasts” - The cultural difference between the corporate world and a charity, and whether it’s really possible for the two to share an office.
• 1:55 The story: How Scott Logic turned his CSR dream into a reality with the formation of a charity to support young people in the North East
• 5:15 Opportunities for all: Altitude Foundation supports social mobility in the local community, giving young people the opportunity to explore technology.
• 8:08 Starting from scratch: What it’s like joining an established workplace where the outputs and culture are very different. Colin explores the learning curve for the Scott Logic wider team in third sector operations.
• 9:27 Values and aims: While organisations share a founder and values, they still differ vastly in terms of operations, culture, and goals.
• 10:53 Investing in talent: By investing in local young people, Scott Logic is delivering a highly effective CSR strategy that nurtures the future generation of technologists in the North East.
• 12:37 Quid pro quo: Exploring the mutually beneficial arrangement, and the legal setup of the corporate and charity relationship.
• 16:20 Work culture: Trust is key to the success of this relationship - but what about when the teams are not in the same geographical location?
• 19:55 The practicalities: With multiple offices around the UK, Scott Logic has always been hybrid. How best to communicate between teams, locations, remote clients and still keep a community hub?
• 23:13 Feeling left out: Both digital and physical spaces are set up to protect client work, but this can cause frustration for the latter as they might miss social communications.
• 26:44 Hybrid working: Scott Logic asks the team to come to the office one day per week, but it’s not an official mandate, which aligns with their value of trust. Graham says the senior team must lead by example.
• 29:55 Altitude Foundation’s working setup: Working out and about vs the office.
• 31:48 Privacy and security: The management of sensitive information on different levels.
• 34:38 New hopefuls: The graduate scheme that has a track record of creating a loyal, productive workforce.
• 37:37 Work culture highlights: Colin talks about finding common ground, while Graham highlights the value of play.

Transcript

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Hi, welcome to Both Sides of the Desk.

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I'm Charlie Charlton,

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and each week we have one boss, one employee

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to talk work culture.

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Why? Well, as a journalist, I host a lot

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of business conferences, and it is the one

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subject that always comes up.

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How do we create and keep happy, high-performing teams?

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So to give the honest, and sometimes awkward answers to that,

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we have the pioneering firm

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of software developers, Scott Logic.

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Now, their founder, Gary Scott, also chose

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to establish a techy charity.

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It's focused on social mobility

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and they're sitting opposite - Altitude Foundation,

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a legally distinct independent entity.

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But they share the same office here at

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the Helix site in Newcastle.

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You might have spotted this isn't our usual setup,

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'cause usually we have one boss, one employee

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on Both Sides of the Desk.

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But there is a very similar feel here.

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Um, and this is of senior management

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and a member of staff who's challenging the main business

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model in terms of work culture.

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Colin, you described your, yourselves, your group

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as "naughty teenagers" in the office. Did

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I? Yes,

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that sounds about right. I deeply regret that.

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Now I, there

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is that feel though,

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because you are kind of within a,

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a very serious tech environment.

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Yeah, so I, I'm actually conscious that I, I'm, I'm,

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I'm sort of rejecting that.

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Um, but at the same time, uh, yesterday we were, um,

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piloting, uh, a little robot around the office

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and everybody that was coming past from Scott Logic was

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looking askance as we were sort of just driving this thing

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around, um, to see what we could do with the coding.

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So maybe, actually to be fair,

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naughty teenagers is accurate. I dunno.

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Yeah, it does sound about right.

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Um, we're different beasts and I'll put it that way.

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Um, the reason you're working alongside each other though,

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is because of what I really feel is an incredible

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story, um, that somewhat bizarrely emerged

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from the collapse of Lehman Brothers.

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Yeah. Um, I love telling this story

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because I love watching people's reaction to it.

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So, Graham put us in the picture here.

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Yeah. So, um, I guess this is back, uh, 2008.

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Um, Scott Logic, uh, was working

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almost exclusively with Lehman Brothers.

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They are pretty much our only client.

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Um, and this thing happened, um, no-one noticed,

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but I believe they collapsed.

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Um, I think they, our only client, I think

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they're are our only clients who collapsed.

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But the, the background even, that was our founder.

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Um, he formerly worked at Lehman Brothers for a decade.

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Um, you know, still very strong personal connections in

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there, as well as them being a significant client to us.

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But they were, they were also in arrears with us.

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Um, and how much? Oooh a good, good solid six figure.

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Some, um, you know, big, big numbers we're talking about.

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And, uh, that vanished on us.

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Um, now because of the way that Scott Logic had been run very

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sort of prudently

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and sustainably, um, we were able to weather that storm.

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And arguably we, we,

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we came outta the whole financial crash,

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um, in a better state,

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'cause we kind of realised we should probably have many more

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clients rather than over-relying on one.

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Um, but, uh, you know, sort of fast forward 10 years

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and we'd never let go of that debt.

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Um, mostly because for, for Gary, our Founder, he, um,

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it was a way of him staying in touch with

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what was happening at Lehman Brothers in the meantime.

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Uh, and eventually we got paid out every penny in

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the pound that we were owed.

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Um, 10 years later, since 20, well, 2017,

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um, that got paid out.

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And so Gary sat there going, well, we've,

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we've written this off as a business.

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We've, we were never expecting this cash.

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And here it suddenly is.

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What can we do with it? Now in a, you know, many businesses,

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they pocket it, run away with it, extract that cash

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because hey, you know, party!

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Um, but Gary's view and,

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and how he always likes to run the business is, well,

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what can we, what can we do that has positive impact?

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And he's from the North East.

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That's why the company was originally founded here.

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Um, and, you know, he, he wanted to help, um,

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kids from less well-off backgrounds.

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Uh, his own story is a version of that.

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Um, but he always felt he had a very, um,

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strong family around him.

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A lot of the family support, which is not

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what you see in a lot of, uh, families from,

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from less well off backgrounds.

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Um, so he thought, well, let's, let's do something.

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Let's create a charitable trust, some kind of foundation

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that could go and help in some way in that space.

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How can we align the North East kids and technology together?

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'cause technology is the thing that Scott Logic does.

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Um, and that was the seed for

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what was originally called the 'Scott Logic Foundation'.

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And then we thought, well, that's...

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We don't wanna tie it that closely to Scott Logic, you know,

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in terms of getting funds from elsewhere and getting support

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and it doing its own thing.

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It needed a different name.

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It was Gary's wife, I believe, on a,

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on a flight back from, from the Alps, uh, from a skiing,

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holiday went, 'Altitude Foundation", bang!

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That's it! And that was the seed idea.

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So, a significant amount of that cash

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that came back from Lehman Brothers, in the we were owed back

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in 2008, was the seed funding

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for creating Altitude Foundation and,

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and creating an impact,

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a positive impact up here in the North East. That

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belief in setting that up, that social mobility

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or opportunities for all, was that something

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that was already firmly embedded in Scott Logic?

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Or that announcement about the money, which came

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as a surprise, the money,

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that you were even on the creditors list at that stage,

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that, um, that that was like, oh my goodness,

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and now we've got a Foundation that we're supporting?

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Uh, so I, I guess it was, it, nothing's ever a surprise

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with Gary, I'll put it that way.

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Uh, this is, you know, incredibly entrepreneurial guy who,

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there's always a million things going on,

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and certain ones bubble up and, and take root.

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But, um, he, I, I guess it, it, it wasn't a surprise

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because this is a, I believe we're a business full of, of,

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uh, good people doing good things with the right intentions.

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I don't think we'd ever consciously shaped ourselves

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towards doing something like this.

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I don't think we'd ever had that conversation.

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But the circumstance provoked it.

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And, uh, you know, with, with that opportunity, Gary said,

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well, we don't know how to do any of this stuff.

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And went and looked for help

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and guidance from some external people who, who started

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to bring it to life, to ask him the right questions,

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ask the right questions, his family, the right questions

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to figure out what it is we could do,

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and then bring in people like

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Colin to actually make it true.

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You are the answer to their problems, Colin!

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Well, how little they knew!

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I, I, yeah. Quite.

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What was it like then coming in as a,

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should I call you a do-gooder?

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You're somebody who's interested in that sphere, aren't you?

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Um, politically, societally,

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Yeah. So I, I,

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I, I've always, um, genuinely believed in the,

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um, sort of transformative part of education

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and opportunity for young people.

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Um, and, you know, I, I, I think we should be doing all

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that we can to make sure that, um, you know, all people,

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but young people in particular can, you know,

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maximise the gifts and skills

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and the abilities that they've got.

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And so, and through, throughout my career, that's been one

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of the big things that I've always kind of focused on.

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Um, seeing the opportunity at Altitude Foundation brought a,

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a number of different things together for me.

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One was that, the other was the fact that, you know, I'm,

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I'm not from the North East originally,

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but I've, I've, you know, settled here.

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I've, I've started a family here.

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It's, it's been incredibly exciting.

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It's been, um, a, a fantastic opportunity from the get go,

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not without its challenges, you know,

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because we've tried to build something from scratch.

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We're not trying to do something

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that everybody else is doing.

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We're actually trying to do something,

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you know, quite different.

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Um, and that's where I think, you know, the,

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the relationship that we have with Scott Logic, for example,

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has made it a lot easier than I think some charities would,

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you know, maybe otherwise, um, find it.

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Because we have had, you know, from,

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from right from the get go, I've had people

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around me helping, supporting, um, making sure that we can,

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you know, focus on what really matters. But

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you say easier though.

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Sorry, I'm just thinking,

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but you're going into an established company

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and you are there starting from scratch

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in terms of work culture.

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Was that not really difficult?

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It was, and it wasn't.

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Um, I, I think one of the, one of the good things, one

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of the things that helped was, um, we have our own name.

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You know, we are our own legally independent

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charitable entity.

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And, you know, I was very clear from the outset,

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we've gotta set up things that are right for us

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as ourselves, but there were those kind of challenges in

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that, you know, there were some people that were, you know,

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trying to help us with, you know, some of the initial setup,

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you know, the, the finance, the admin, the HR, all of

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that kind of thing, who maybe weren't used

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to the charity sector, weren't used to the, you know,

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00:08:59,165 --> 00:09:00,565
the particular ways of doing things.

216
00:09:00,925 --> 00:09:02,445
I think there's been a kind of learning journey

217
00:09:02,515 --> 00:09:05,165
that I've gone on with the trustees, you know, Gary

218
00:09:05,185 --> 00:09:07,845
and others, to, to understand, you know,

219
00:09:07,905 --> 00:09:08,925
how you actually run

220
00:09:08,925 --> 00:09:11,525
and operate a charity, which is, which has been, you know,

221
00:09:13,335 --> 00:09:14,335
interesting. Should we say at

222
00:09:14,335 --> 00:09:15,695
times. Um,

223
00:09:16,155 --> 00:09:17,575
I'm just kind gonna count the number

224
00:09:17,575 --> 00:09:19,055
of times in this conversation.

225
00:09:19,055 --> 00:09:21,815
We used the words 'interesting' or 'challenging'. Yeah.

226
00:09:22,305 --> 00:09:23,855
Those synonyms. Yeah. Yeah, exactly.

227
00:09:25,275 --> 00:09:28,495
But that is, it's with a different set of values and aims.

228
00:09:28,765 --> 00:09:31,215
Does that, well, do they...Is it that a conflict

229
00:09:31,215 --> 00:09:32,215
there? No. So I don't, I

230
00:09:32,215 --> 00:09:33,855
I think the, the, a lot

231
00:09:33,855 --> 00:09:34,935
of the values are the same.

232
00:09:35,155 --> 00:09:38,535
So, you know, we talk about, uh, Scott Logic's purpose being

233
00:09:38,915 --> 00:09:41,295
to create opportunity and sustainable prosperity

234
00:09:41,295 --> 00:09:42,735
through technology, innovation, right?

235
00:09:42,735 --> 00:09:44,855
That's our kind of corny line,

236
00:09:45,555 --> 00:09:48,135
but that's representative of the values

237
00:09:48,135 --> 00:09:49,655
that we talk about with Altitude, right?

238
00:09:49,675 --> 00:09:51,095
It is about creating opportunity

239
00:09:51,115 --> 00:09:52,295
and sustainable prosperity

240
00:09:52,715 --> 00:09:55,375
for a very different cohort of people, right?

241
00:09:55,375 --> 00:09:56,975
For us, it's around our clients.

242
00:09:57,485 --> 00:09:59,055
It's around the people that we employ

243
00:09:59,435 --> 00:10:01,655
and the community we operate in.

244
00:10:02,075 --> 00:10:05,415
And we're focused squarely towards large organisations,

245
00:10:05,435 --> 00:10:07,375
public sector, banks, whatever they are.

246
00:10:08,435 --> 00:10:11,455
You're aimed at younger children, right?

247
00:10:11,455 --> 00:10:12,535
Yeah. That, that's it.

248
00:10:12,795 --> 00:10:15,375
But you are the business. We're a business. Yes.

249
00:10:15,515 --> 00:10:16,575
So effectively,

250
00:10:16,575 --> 00:10:18,695
whichever way you dress it up, you're looking for money.

251
00:10:19,155 --> 00:10:21,855
Yes. Because you, you, you've gotta get the clients.

252
00:10:21,855 --> 00:10:22,935
You gotta, whereas you are not looking

253
00:10:22,935 --> 00:10:24,255
for money necessarily?

254
00:10:24,255 --> 00:10:26,175
You're looking for social impact. Um,

255
00:10:26,425 --> 00:10:28,655
we're looking for money to deliver social impact, but yes.

256
00:10:28,765 --> 00:10:30,175
Yeah. Yeah. We're, we're not sort

257
00:10:30,175 --> 00:10:31,215
of driven by the bottom line in the

258
00:10:31,215 --> 00:10:32,215
same way. Yes. Yes. But some of,

259
00:10:32,215 --> 00:10:32,655
some of

260
00:10:32,655 --> 00:10:36,775
how we look at why we are trying to get money is to be able

261
00:10:36,835 --> 00:10:41,295
to support that kind of social impact part of, not all

262
00:10:41,295 --> 00:10:43,695
of it, but that is, I guess that is part of

263
00:10:43,695 --> 00:10:46,015
how we see the purpose of our running the business.

264
00:10:46,165 --> 00:10:49,215
It's not just about creating as much cash as possible

265
00:10:49,275 --> 00:10:50,735
to line a small number

266
00:10:50,735 --> 00:10:53,215
of shareholders' pockets. That's not what we're about.

267
00:10:53,875 --> 00:10:55,535
And this isn't about good PR?

268
00:10:56,445 --> 00:10:58,855
That is definitely part of it. Right.

269
00:10:58,875 --> 00:11:00,295
And you, you know, you, you look at it,

270
00:11:00,355 --> 00:11:04,695
you look at it longterm, and for us, uh, in the North East,

271
00:11:05,115 --> 00:11:08,135
um, doesn't have enough amazing technologists.

272
00:11:08,355 --> 00:11:11,655
It just doesn't. Um, and we need more

273
00:11:11,655 --> 00:11:13,655
and more of them to grow as an organiSation.

274
00:11:13,995 --> 00:11:17,095
So indirectly through what we're doing with Altitude,

275
00:11:17,105 --> 00:11:19,095
we're potentially creating more technologists

276
00:11:19,115 --> 00:11:20,135
for Scott Logic in the future.

277
00:11:20,275 --> 00:11:23,575
So it's absolutely, there is a self-serving element to it

278
00:11:23,695 --> 00:11:25,175
that's not just PR it's,

279
00:11:25,195 --> 00:11:28,375
it genuinely creates more talent in the area for us.

280
00:11:28,875 --> 00:11:30,055
And yes, it's good for PR

281
00:11:30,635 --> 00:11:32,135
and that's not a bad thing

282
00:11:32,135 --> 00:11:33,895
to have all of those at the same time, right?

283
00:11:34,395 --> 00:11:36,415
You know, what's really refresh refreshing

284
00:11:36,965 --> 00:11:39,295
that you just agreed with me on that.

285
00:11:39,925 --> 00:11:42,775
Were you shocked by that? No. Because this is

286
00:11:42,775 --> 00:11:43,855
the conversation we have to have.

287
00:11:43,885 --> 00:11:47,095
Yeah. I, I genuinely, we sit there at times going, okay,

288
00:11:47,095 --> 00:11:48,335
that's lovely, Colin.

289
00:11:48,335 --> 00:11:49,735
That's what you want out of it.

290
00:11:50,075 --> 00:11:53,525
That's a great thing for Altitude. What do I get outta it?

291
00:11:53,525 --> 00:11:54,765
What does Scott Logic get out of it?

292
00:11:54,765 --> 00:11:56,165
Where's the value exchange here?

293
00:11:56,365 --> 00:11:57,845
'cause it's not, it cannot be one way.

294
00:11:58,265 --> 00:12:01,965
And I, in genuine genuinely early days, some of the problem

295
00:12:02,705 --> 00:12:05,165
for Colin was it was ending up very

296
00:12:05,185 --> 00:12:06,205
one way towards Altitude.

297
00:12:06,205 --> 00:12:08,885
And you were sitting there going, but Graham, what,

298
00:12:09,075 --> 00:12:10,645
what do you guys get outta it?

299
00:12:10,925 --> 00:12:14,085
'cause you know, he's sitting there understandably, saying,

300
00:12:14,085 Scott Logic eventually turns around

301
00:12:16,285 --> 00:12:19,085
and goes, we get nothing outta this, um,

302
00:12:19,815 --> 00:12:20,965
there goes the funding, you could

303
00:12:20,965 --> 00:12:22,005
just pull plug there, pull the plug, right.

304
00:12:22,145 --> 00:12:23,965
And that, that's a, a genuine concern

305
00:12:23,965 --> 00:12:26,325
that hangs over the relationship forevermore.

306
00:12:26,985 --> 00:12:28,725
And it's not something we have to speak

307
00:12:28,745 --> 00:12:30,045
to directly all the time,

308
00:12:30,585 --> 00:12:31,965
but we have to acknowledge it's there

309
00:12:32,105 --> 00:12:34,325
and we do openly acknowledge that is a thing.

310
00:12:34,675 --> 00:12:35,675
Yeah.

311
00:12:37,305 --> 00:12:38,885
The way that I, the way that I talk about it

312
00:12:38,885 --> 00:12:40,605
and have done for a long time is that there's a kind

313
00:12:40,605 --> 00:12:41,605
of quid pro quo here.

314
00:12:42,025 --> 00:12:44,445
And, and that that's, you know, perhaps a, a little bit sort

315
00:12:44,445 --> 00:12:47,325
of, um, kind of mechanical,

316
00:12:47,345 --> 00:12:51,845
but you know, as a charity, we have to acknowledge that if,

317
00:12:52,305 --> 00:12:54,205
you know, if someone's gonna give us money

318
00:12:54,745 --> 00:12:57,685
or support us in a voluntary capacity, um,

319
00:12:57,945 --> 00:13:00,205
or, you know, provide any kinda benefit in kind,

320
00:13:01,075 --> 00:13:02,565
they presumably want something from it.

321
00:13:02,985 --> 00:13:05,885
Um, and, and that's, that's okay.

322
00:13:06,465 --> 00:13:09,085
You know, there's gotta be a line, you know, you,

323
00:13:09,085 --> 00:13:10,885
you've gotta accept that there's some, you know, you,

324
00:13:10,885 --> 00:13:12,605
you won't do anything to get a,

325
00:13:12,605 --> 00:13:13,805
you know, funding in or whatever.

326
00:13:14,105 --> 00:13:16,005
Um, you've got to maintain your kind of, your moral

327
00:13:16,005 --> 00:13:17,645
and ethical boundaries and that sort of thing.

328
00:13:17,865 --> 00:13:20,525
But at the end of the day, it is a conversation we've had

329
00:13:20,525 --> 00:13:22,765
where I've said, look, you know, I, I, I don't want,

330
00:13:23,345 --> 00:13:25,405
you know, Scott Logic to turn around

331
00:13:25,425 --> 00:13:27,845
and say, this doesn't work for us anymore.

332
00:13:27,845 --> 00:13:30,565
Cheerio. I've gotta understand, well, why is it

333
00:13:30,565 --> 00:13:34,005
that you want to keep, um, investing in Altitude, um,

334
00:13:34,025 --> 00:13:35,165
in all of the ways that you do?

335
00:13:35,165 --> 00:13:36,725
Why is it you want to keep supporting us?

336
00:13:37,065 --> 00:13:40,125
How can we, um, do that in a way that that works?

337
00:13:40,785 --> 00:13:43,845
And, and I, I, I think that that has to be a,

338
00:13:44,085 --> 00:13:45,285
a really quite sensible

339
00:13:45,285 --> 00:13:46,965
and pragmatic part of the conversation, frankly.

340
00:13:47,115 --> 00:13:50,325
Because if you avoid that, then you do end up, up in a set

341
00:13:50,325 --> 00:13:52,605
of circumstances where either Scott Logic just

342
00:13:52,605 --> 00:13:53,805
isn't happy with what we are doing.

343
00:13:54,425 --> 00:13:57,605
Um, or we seem like we're incredibly ungrateful

344
00:13:57,605 --> 00:13:58,965
because we're taking up space

345
00:13:58,965 --> 00:14:00,365
and driving robots around the office

346
00:14:00,545 --> 00:14:02,565
and, you know, creating a mess

347
00:14:02,745 --> 00:14:04,925
and not really doing anything to sing for us.

348
00:14:04,985 --> 00:14:05,985
By the look on his face. It

349
00:14:05,985 --> 00:14:07,685
doesn't seem like that bit's gone down that well (laugh).

350
00:14:07,685 --> 00:14:11,645
Anyway, I just, that it's so many issues.

351
00:14:11,945 --> 00:14:15,005
I'd like to kind of draw outta that. So one by one.

352
00:14:15,185 --> 00:14:19,165
Um, firstly, is there a, a big contract then

353
00:14:19,895 --> 00:14:22,445
where this is all detailed between the two

354
00:14:22,445 --> 00:14:24,325
of you, this relationship? Or is this...

355
00:14:24,585 --> 00:14:25,585
No, no, no. There

356
00:14:25,585 --> 00:14:27,205
is no paperwork whatsoever.

357
00:14:27,585 --> 00:14:29,485
No legal contract? No legal contract.

358
00:14:29,485 --> 00:14:31,125
Because if it, if it came down to

359
00:14:31,125 --> 00:14:33,045
that, it's not going to work.

360
00:14:33,435 --> 00:14:36,845
This has to be the, the, the, the values alignment,

361
00:14:36,845 --> 00:14:39,605
the thing we're trying to achieve, both as Scott Logic

362
00:14:39,745 --> 00:14:41,645
and as Altitude has to happen

363
00:14:41,645 --> 00:14:42,845
because we've got sensible people

364
00:14:42,845 --> 00:14:43,925
trying to do the right thing.

365
00:14:44,245 --> 00:14:45,805
A contract does not give you sensible

366
00:14:45,805 --> 00:14:46,965
people trying to do the right thing.

367
00:14:47,305 --> 00:14:49,125
If anything, it can start to skew matters.

368
00:14:49,545 --> 00:14:53,405
So it's purely a moral contract. Mm-Hmm. Yeah. Wow.

369
00:14:53,985 --> 00:14:55,285
And are you happy with that, Colin?

370
00:14:56,515 --> 00:14:58,475
I, I think, you know, there, there are

371
00:14:58,815 --> 00:15:01,995
And, and a, a shared founder, executive chairman,

372
00:15:02,535 --> 00:15:03,915
and trustee, right?

373
00:15:03,975 --> 00:15:06,075
So there's, there's a, there's an individual who is,

374
00:15:06,175 --> 00:15:09,955
who is in the driving seat in both sides, who. Right.

375
00:15:10,135 --> 00:15:12,435
He, he is also some the glue that makes that happen,

376
00:15:12,535 --> 00:15:13,995
but it's a person rather than a

377
00:15:14,155 --> 00:15:15,155
contract. Yes. Okay.

378
00:15:15,155 --> 00:15:18,195
Um, I, I, I think, you know, you,

379
00:15:18,195 --> 00:15:21,315
you've gotta accept that whatever model you go

380
00:15:21,315 --> 00:15:22,675
for is gonna have some kind of trade off.

381
00:15:23,135 --> 00:15:27,025
Um, and, you know, to, to suggest

382
00:15:27,025 --> 00:15:28,745
otherwise is perhaps slightly naive.

383
00:15:29,065 --> 00:15:33,345
I think, you know, the, the conclusion that we have all sort

384
00:15:33,345 --> 00:15:35,585
of collectively come to is that a,

385
00:15:35,945 --> 00:15:38,305
a moral contract is the better way to do it,

386
00:15:38,695 --> 00:15:42,065
because it means then that you spend a lot more time

387
00:15:43,225 --> 00:15:44,305
actually engaging with

388
00:15:44,325 --> 00:15:46,785
and investing in the people that you're in partnership with.

389
00:15:47,365 --> 00:15:50,145
Um, because as soon as it becomes a legal thing, then,

390
00:15:50,445 --> 00:15:51,585
you know, I, I, you know,

391
00:15:52,325 --> 00:15:53,945
It changes the dynamic. You ring up and it's a

392
00:15:53,945 --> 00:15:54,625
transaction, right? Yeah.

393
00:15:54,625 --> 00:15:55,785
it becomes a transaction. You know,

394
00:15:55,785 --> 00:15:56,785
you haven't given me this thing

395
00:15:56,785 --> 00:15:58,825
that you said you were gonna give me within four weeks

396
00:15:58,825 --> 00:16:00,625
of me issuing the request for and all that.

397
00:16:00,645 --> 00:16:01,905
And that's not how you want to do it.

398
00:16:02,225 --> 00:16:05,145
Actually, you know, you want it to be a,

399
00:16:05,265 --> 00:16:06,305
a proper partnership.

400
00:16:06,605 --> 00:16:09,785
Um, that, that is driven by a shared sense of values.

401
00:16:10,245 --> 00:16:12,745
And I, and I think it is easier when you've got two sort

402
00:16:12,745 --> 00:16:15,025
of purpose driven organisations that are saying, okay, well,

403
00:16:15,025 --> 00:16:16,185
does the purpose align here?

404
00:16:16,205 --> 00:16:18,025
Yes, it does. Right? Well, we're invested in it.

405
00:16:18,365 --> 00:16:20,625
Um, and, and it works that

406
00:16:20,625 --> 00:16:22,465
shows so much about your work culture.

407
00:16:24,015 --> 00:16:25,745
There's so Yes, because I feel like

408
00:16:25,775 --> 00:16:26,775
Just speak to each other.

409
00:16:27,335 --> 00:16:28,465
Okay. Yeah. Right.

410
00:16:28,605 --> 00:16:31,065
But in, in, in the way of, you know, trusting each other,

411
00:16:31,135 --> 00:16:33,305
that is a lot of trust being put on both sides.

412
00:16:33,325 --> 00:16:35,105
Mm-Hmm. And also communication.

413
00:16:36,045 --> 00:16:39,105
So you are based geographically in different places.

414
00:16:39,285 --> 00:16:40,625
You are in Scotland. Mm-Hmm.

415
00:16:40,805 --> 00:16:42,785
You are in the North East of England.

416
00:16:42,785 --> 00:16:44,465
Yeah. How do you do that then?

417
00:16:44,885 --> 00:16:47,705
Uh, you start with trust rather than developing it. Right.

418
00:16:47,915 --> 00:16:50,345
Trust you. You start from a belief that

419
00:16:50,855 --> 00:16:51,905
this is going to work.

420
00:16:52,715 --> 00:16:54,545
Everything you say is entirely true.

421
00:16:54,595 --> 00:16:55,745
We're going to be open and honest.

422
00:16:56,325 --> 00:16:59,265
Um, and potentially it erodes away from that,

423
00:16:59,265 --> 00:17:02,505
rather than going, well, I think you are trying to fleece me

424
00:17:02,565 --> 00:17:03,665
and I'm gonna try, you know,

425
00:17:03,665 --> 00:17:06,465
and have to build up to a point where that isn't the case.

426
00:17:06,965 --> 00:17:09,065
Um, and that's exactly how this started.

427
00:17:09,385 --> 00:17:11,345
I think when, you know, when you, the early days

428
00:17:11,345 --> 00:17:14,225
of Altitude Foundation, it was a bit more face-to-face.

429
00:17:14,405 --> 00:17:17,185
It was a bit more regular. It was a bit more, we tried

430
00:17:17,185 --> 00:17:18,185
to be a bit more structured.

431
00:17:18,975 --> 00:17:20,585
Colin's not a very structured person

432
00:17:20,585 --> 00:17:21,705
when it comes to that kind of thing.

433
00:17:22,205 --> 00:17:23,345
I'm not a very structured person

434
00:17:23,345 --> 00:17:24,385
when it comes to that kind of thing.

435
00:17:24,585 --> 00:17:26,185
I, we both should be.

436
00:17:26,725 --> 00:17:30,785
But the reality is, we, uh, we very quickly proved

437
00:17:30,785 --> 00:17:33,225
to each other that actually we can do this pretty ad hoc.

438
00:17:33,365 --> 00:17:35,025
You were reliable, whatever way it

439
00:17:35,025 --> 00:17:36,105
was, we were gonna be reliable.

440
00:17:36,365 --> 00:17:40,385
But also the, the, the thing, the best way for you

441
00:17:40,385 --> 00:17:43,505
to achieve what you're trying to achieve with Altitude is,

442
00:17:43,845 --> 00:17:47,465
uh, for me to not meddle, not try

443
00:17:47,465 --> 00:17:49,805
and get close to the details, to just trust

444
00:17:49,915 --> 00:17:52,685
that the outcome is going to come and that that'll happen.

445
00:17:53,185 --> 00:17:55,125
Uh, and to make sure that how we're set up

446
00:17:55,125 --> 00:17:56,125
to work together more,

447
00:17:56,155 --> 00:17:58,565
more generally steers in that direction.

448
00:17:58,805 --> 00:18:00,885
'cause the one, one point that's, that's quite different

449
00:18:00,885 --> 00:18:05,245
for you as a charity is the, the funding we provide is to

450
00:18:06,435 --> 00:18:08,005
deliver the outcome we're after.

451
00:18:08,945 --> 00:18:13,085
So all the, like, it finance, HR, that comes

452
00:18:13,085 --> 00:18:15,805
with support from Scott Logic, so there's no excuse.

453
00:18:16,155 --> 00:18:17,725
Like you can't go and hide saying, well,

454
00:18:17,725 --> 00:18:19,565
we're really busy dealing with all these other things,

455
00:18:19,565 --> 00:18:21,885
which I'm delivering the, the positive impact we want.

456
00:18:21,955 --> 00:18:24,925
Yeah. And therefore, I know, well, there's nowhere to hide,

457
00:18:25,385 --> 00:18:27,925
so I don't have to go and keep checking up

458
00:18:27,925 --> 00:18:32,045
because it'll be really, really obvious if the,

459
00:18:32,105 --> 00:18:35,085
the things we're ultimately all looking for aren't happening.

460
00:18:35,545 --> 00:18:37,325
If you've just been racing robots

461
00:18:37,325 --> 00:18:39,045
around the office and doing, but that is

462
00:18:39,045 --> 00:18:40,045
part of racing robots,

463
00:18:40,085 --> 00:18:41,365
annoyingly is part of what,

464
00:18:41,395 --> 00:18:43,885
what it's about. I wish it was for me too.

465
00:18:44,025 --> 00:18:45,645
Not 40 hours a week. Sure,

466
00:18:45,645 --> 00:18:46,285
Sure. I,

467
00:18:46,325 --> 00:18:47,485
I, I, I sometimes wonder,

468
00:18:47,485 --> 00:18:48,725
how did I manage to get into this?

469
00:18:48,725 --> 00:18:50,085
Because I, you know, design events

470
00:18:50,105 --> 00:18:52,085
and activities that are basically like things

471
00:18:52,085 --> 00:18:53,325
that make me go, oh, cool!

472
00:18:53,625 --> 00:18:54,925
And then I go and do it with young people

473
00:18:54,925 --> 00:18:56,805
and I'm like, uh, how did I luck out in this?

474
00:18:56,805 --> 00:18:59,045
Like, I'm just designing stuff to keep myself entertained.

475
00:18:59,635 --> 00:19:01,965
Part of the trust is, is about being honest when

476
00:19:01,965 --> 00:19:03,605
things aren't working out.

477
00:19:03,865 --> 00:19:06,685
Um, whenever there are challenges with delivery, um,

478
00:19:06,865 --> 00:19:09,725
I'm not trying to sort of hide it, sugarcoat it,

479
00:19:09,755 --> 00:19:10,885
pretend it's otherwise,

480
00:19:11,665 --> 00:19:14,285
and, you know, not be worried

481
00:19:14,355 --> 00:19:16,045
that the response is gonna be - Right,

482
00:19:16,045 --> 00:19:17,965
well the funding's going because going back to

483
00:19:17,965 --> 00:19:19,605
that point about, you know, what kind of legal contract,

484
00:19:19,605 --> 00:19:21,245
well, you said you were gonna have to do X

485
00:19:21,305 --> 00:19:22,565
and you know, it's about right.

486
00:19:22,565 --> 00:19:24,405
Okay, well, what is the outcome?

487
00:19:24,405 --> 00:19:26,485
And you know, if it's delivered excellent, great.

488
00:19:26,485 --> 00:19:28,645
We're really pleased with that. If it's not, you know,

489
00:19:28,785 --> 00:19:29,845
what's happening to try

490
00:19:29,845 --> 00:19:31,285
and address that, where we're going next.

491
00:19:31,985 --> 00:19:34,525
And it'll be understanding outside influences as well,

492
00:19:34,525 --> 00:19:37,245
because my goodness, Covid would've thrown

493
00:19:37,435 --> 00:19:40,805
what you did up in the air in terms of delivery?

494
00:19:41,025 --> 00:19:43,005
And then you've got political change.

495
00:19:43,025 --> 00:19:45,325
You've got all of those things which affect the education

496
00:19:45,345 --> 00:19:48,485
sector, which wouldn't necessarily be having a direct impact

497
00:19:48,485 --> 00:19:50,565
on you, but interest rates will be having

498
00:19:50,605 --> 00:19:51,685
a direct impact on you.

499
00:19:51,705 --> 00:19:53,845
And so there, there are all those competing challenges.

500
00:19:53,845 --> 00:19:55,725
Mm-Hmm. Um, on the communication though,

501
00:19:55,725 --> 00:19:57,525
and let's talk practically.

502
00:19:57,945 --> 00:20:02,125
So, um, are you face to face?

503
00:20:02,225 --> 00:20:03,925
How much or how much are you on Teams

504
00:20:03,945 --> 00:20:05,365
or what channels do you use? We

505
00:20:06,185 --> 00:20:09,605
try to have a formal catch up over teams once a month.

506
00:20:09,675 --> 00:20:11,085
That includes one or two other people.

507
00:20:11,205 --> 00:20:12,405
I say try, 'cause some,

508
00:20:12,825 --> 00:20:14,885
the series in Outlook tends to lapse.

509
00:20:14,885 --> 00:20:16,565
And then I go, oh, we haven't done that for a month,

510
00:20:17,265 --> 00:20:20,205
but, um, I'm down here in Newcastle a day

511
00:20:20,205 --> 00:20:21,725
or two a week most weeks.

512
00:20:22,185 --> 00:20:23,485
And then it's just grabbing,

513
00:20:24,125 --> 00:20:25,525
grabbing each other on random things.

514
00:20:25,525 --> 00:20:28,325
Again, it it's because we've built the relationship now.

515
00:20:28,785 --> 00:20:31,715
Um, the understanding is as

516
00:20:31,715 --> 00:20:33,515
and when it's needed, just speak.

517
00:20:33,815 --> 00:20:35,915
And that might be a quick email to say we need to talk.

518
00:20:36,095 --> 00:20:38,475
It might be a longer email setting out - here's the idea.

519
00:20:38,895 --> 00:20:40,475
It might be making sure that others on the

520
00:20:40,475 --> 00:20:41,555
team are comfortable doing that.

521
00:20:41,895 --> 00:20:44,795
Um, oftentimes it's Colin knowing he should just go

522
00:20:44,795 --> 00:20:47,525
and speak to anyone but me in Scott Logic. Which further

523
00:20:47,925 --> 00:20:50,285
demonstrates this, I mean, one of the reasons we, we,

524
00:20:50,285 --> 00:20:54,725
we wanted to do this podcast was about this, um, enlightened

525
00:20:55,395 --> 00:20:59,085
C-suite with the empowered, um,

526
00:20:59,355 --> 00:21:00,885
with the empowered workforce.

527
00:21:01,025 --> 00:21:02,805
But what you are saying there is that is

528
00:21:02,805 --> 00:21:04,685
because you, you do trust other people within

529
00:21:04,745 --> 00:21:05,845
the team to do their job.

530
00:21:06,585 --> 00:21:09,445
How do you as a team within Scott Logic communicate then?

531
00:21:10,075 --> 00:21:12,045
Because I imagine if you've got some

532
00:21:12,635 --> 00:21:14,165
in-office and some Yeah,

533
00:21:14,165 --> 00:21:15,165
Yeah. So we've always got,

534
00:21:15,165 --> 00:21:15,765
so we've got the

535
00:21:15,765 --> 00:21:16,925
six offices around the UK.

536
00:21:17,275 --> 00:21:18,845
There's always communication across those.

537
00:21:18,895 --> 00:21:22,325
We've got hybrid working, so everyone is entitled

538
00:21:22,325 --> 00:21:24,565
to work from home and as well as in the office.

539
00:21:25,105 --> 00:21:27,805
Um, our clients have, as you alluded to,

540
00:21:27,805 --> 00:21:31,045
have always been remote from us anyway, so that notion

541
00:21:31,045 --> 00:21:34,165
of part of the team is not here, has always been in

542
00:21:34,165 --> 00:21:37,405
how we've worked so formally we have Teams

543
00:21:37,905 --> 00:21:40,645
and uh, as in Microsoft Teams

544
00:21:40,745 --> 00:21:42,205
and you do the chat through that

545
00:21:42,205 --> 00:21:43,725
and we can do calls through that.

546
00:21:44,195 --> 00:21:46,765
There's the unofficial, but everyone knows about it.

547
00:21:46,935 --> 00:21:50,765
Slack, which has all the more social chat side of things

548
00:21:51,945 --> 00:21:54,165
I'm aware, but shouldn't be that there's one

549
00:21:54,165 --> 00:21:56,045
or two Discord servers that are the sort

550
00:21:56,045 --> 00:21:57,085
of unofficial, unofficial chat.

551
00:21:57,085 --> 00:21:58,805
And there's all these things that go on. Um,

552
00:21:59,155 --> 00:22:00,155
Wait a second. Why do

553
00:22:00,155 --> 00:22:03,205
you say you are aware but shouldn't

554
00:22:03,205 --> 00:22:04,205
be? Because if

555
00:22:04,205 --> 00:22:04,605
I went

556
00:22:04,605 --> 00:22:08,805
and joined that Discord server, then the people who want

557
00:22:08,805 --> 00:22:11,365
to talk about stuff that I, without me seeing it,

558
00:22:11,385 --> 00:22:12,645
are just going to run to the next

559
00:22:12,645 --> 00:22:14,685
place. I know, Iwas that

560
00:22:14,705 --> 00:22:15,705
person! So do you ban senior

561
00:22:15,705 --> 00:22:17,165
management from being part part of these? We don't,

562
00:22:17,425 --> 00:22:18,525
We just don't bother going there.

563
00:22:18,765 --> 00:22:20,205
'cause there's so much noise.

564
00:22:20,705 --> 00:22:23,525
You, I mean, when, when you, if you think about it,

565
00:22:23,525 --> 00:22:25,925
if you're fully face-to-face, there's a point

566
00:22:25,925 --> 00:22:27,365
where people are going to the pub

567
00:22:28,025 --> 00:22:30,605
or socialising outside work where they want to

568
00:22:30,605 --> 00:22:33,605
or need to complain about their colleagues, their employees,

569
00:22:33,775 --> 00:22:34,845
their management.

570
00:22:35,185 --> 00:22:36,685
You, everyone needs to do that.

571
00:22:36,685 --> 00:22:38,445
It's a healthy thing to be able to do that

572
00:22:39,235 --> 00:22:40,245
when you are remote.

573
00:22:40,245 --> 00:22:43,125
When you are virtual, it just so happens you do

574
00:22:43,125 --> 00:22:45,005
that on one of these digital tools.

575
00:22:45,185 --> 00:22:46,685
So that's your pub space? Yeah,

576
00:22:46,875 --> 00:22:47,875
it's a version of that. And

577
00:22:47,875 --> 00:22:50,205
it's whether you invite your boss to the pub? Exactly.

578
00:22:50,205 --> 00:22:52,405
And people roll their eyes. Wow. Okay.

579
00:22:52,665 --> 00:22:54,845
On that Discord server as well - groups?

580
00:22:55,305 --> 00:22:56,365
So is that kind of, I

581
00:22:56,365 --> 00:22:58,485
dunno, Discord, I'm genuinely not.

582
00:22:58,565 --> 00:23:00,405
I don't go anywhere near because you know,

583
00:23:00,405 --> 00:23:01,405
it's too much. Right. Do you know of any,

584
00:23:01,405 --> 00:23:02,405
are you in there, Colin?

585
00:23:02,625 --> 00:23:03,725
No, we, we, we, we Are.

586
00:23:04,065 --> 00:23:06,085
So this is, this is where some of the lines lie.

587
00:23:06,085 --> 00:23:10,045
Is Altitude not anywhere near any of those tools? Right.

588
00:23:11,025 --> 00:23:13,805
Um, so part of it is that, you know,

589
00:23:13,805 --> 00:23:15,925
particularly on the sort of the, the official

590
00:23:15,925 --> 00:23:16,965
and the official unofficial

591
00:23:16,965 --> 00:23:18,885
and things like that, there, there will be, you know,

592
00:23:18,885 --> 00:23:20,765
client side information that we just shouldn't be seeing.

593
00:23:21,345 --> 00:23:24,685
Um, I mean, part of the reason why the office is set up,

594
00:23:24,685 --> 00:23:26,805
the way it's set up is so that we have a, you know,

595
00:23:26,965 --> 00:23:30,485
a quite distinct dedicated space that means that, you know,

596
00:23:30,545 --> 00:23:34,085
we are not in the middle of people doing client work that,

597
00:23:34,385 --> 00:23:36,005
you know, frankly isn't right for us to see.

598
00:23:36,005 --> 00:23:38,605
Because at the end of the day, as I said earlier, we are,

599
00:23:38,745 --> 00:23:41,445
you know, a legally distinct independent entity.

600
00:23:42,065 --> 00:23:45,645
Um, so we, we, we are, we are not on those kind of channels

601
00:23:45,645 --> 00:23:47,565
and that kind of thing because there are naturally gonna be

602
00:23:47,565 --> 00:23:49,205
conversations that I think quite

603
00:23:49,205 --> 00:23:50,965
rightly we shouldn't be a part of. Oh.

604
00:23:51,145 --> 00:23:52,965
Um, but do you feel left out?

605
00:23:53,305 --> 00:23:56,365
It, it does sometimes mean that we, you know, miss out on,

606
00:23:56,625 --> 00:23:58,285
you know, being told that there's a games night

607
00:23:58,285 --> 00:23:59,485
or, you know, people are away off

608
00:23:59,485 --> 00:24:01,805
after work to do this, that, or the other, you know?

609
00:24:01,945 --> 00:24:02,945
But

610
00:24:04,125 --> 00:24:05,325
I know it frustrates you guys.

611
00:24:05,385 --> 00:24:07,205
But that, that is, that is the price. Yeah.

612
00:24:07,205 --> 00:24:09,765
Um, that is the price of making sure that these,

613
00:24:10,505 --> 00:24:12,205
the entities do do their own thing

614
00:24:12,745 --> 00:24:15,845
and that we, we can, we, we don't end up

615
00:24:15,845 --> 00:24:17,445
with the two folding too close together.

616
00:24:17,985 --> 00:24:21,725
And that's, that's the risk always here is that it, if the,

617
00:24:22,585 --> 00:24:25,245
you know, client team driving the robot around,

618
00:24:25,665 --> 00:24:27,965
if everyone from Scott Logic suddenly gets all excited about

619
00:24:27,965 --> 00:24:30,165
the robot being driven around

620
00:24:30,225 --> 00:24:34,005
and wants to take part in also building more robots, well,

621
00:24:34,255 --> 00:24:35,885
Scott Logic is gonna collapse at that point.

622
00:24:35,995 --> 00:24:38,325
This doesn't work. So there's certain places where, again,

623
00:24:38,465 --> 00:24:40,805
we have to maintain, maintain some of that distance.

624
00:24:41,105 --> 00:24:43,245
And it, it is, I'll say sad at times

625
00:24:43,635 --> 00:24:47,885
because I, I know if I were based down here, Colin

626
00:24:48,025 --> 00:24:50,645
and I would probably be good pals down the pub all the time,

627
00:24:50,945 --> 00:24:52,565
but we don't do that.

628
00:24:52,565 --> 00:24:55,165
Yeah. In part because I'm not physically here.

629
00:24:55,405 --> 00:24:56,445
I don't live down here.

630
00:24:57,065 --> 00:25:00,365
But also that wouldn't be right for how we, some

631
00:25:00,365 --> 00:25:01,365
of the distance we need to keep.

632
00:25:01,465 --> 00:25:03,365
Yes, yes. Um, so

633
00:25:03,365 --> 00:25:04,845
there's a couple of, well, I feel like this is a bit,

634
00:25:05,305 --> 00:25:07,365
you know, you are not allowed on the,

635
00:25:07,385 --> 00:25:09,405
you're not being selected for the,

636
00:25:10,145 --> 00:25:11,845
for the football teams. It's not, not allowed.

637
00:25:12,065 --> 00:25:13,845
No. It, it's not, not allowed. I, I think it,

638
00:25:13,845 --> 00:25:15,725
it in actual fact, I think, you know, if you,

639
00:25:15,725 --> 00:25:17,405
if you take the sort of the social aspect of it

640
00:25:17,525 --> 00:25:20,325
and stuff, I, I, I know that we would be very welcome.

641
00:25:20,945 --> 00:25:22,965
Uh, genuinely, I think the

642
00:25:23,475 --> 00:25:25,485
Just not invited, Uh, yeah, we're just not invited.

643
00:25:25,865 --> 00:25:26,865
Um,

644
00:25:27,265 --> 00:25:29,045
You tell yourself what you need! Yeah.

645
00:25:29,325 --> 00:25:30,565
I I'm sure we would be

646
00:25:30,565 --> 00:25:31,845
invited if they only knew.

647
00:25:32,345 --> 00:25:34,925
Um, no, I, I I don't feel like we're being sort

648
00:25:34,925 --> 00:25:36,005
of deliberately excluded.

649
00:25:36,205 --> 00:25:38,605
I think it, it's just, I I I think

650
00:25:38,865 --> 00:25:40,325
for a long time people didn't,

651
00:25:40,425 --> 00:25:43,405
people in Scott Logic didn't realise that we weren't part

652
00:25:43,405 --> 00:25:45,885
of some of these sort of, you know, online conversations

653
00:25:45,905 --> 00:25:47,765
and sort of digital networks and things like that.

654
00:25:48,345 --> 00:25:51,565
Um, and you know, Graham's right?

655
00:25:51,565 --> 00:25:53,165
And sometimes it is a little bit frustrating

656
00:25:53,165 --> 00:25:54,965
because you wish you were part of the conversation.

657
00:25:55,505 --> 00:25:57,805
But you know, as, as with a lot of these things,

658
00:25:57,995 --> 00:25:59,045
it's about trade-offs.

659
00:25:59,045 --> 00:26:00,125
It's about compromise.

660
00:26:00,425 --> 00:26:03,205
Um, I recognise ultimately why we're not part

661
00:26:03,205 --> 00:26:04,525
of those conversations.

662
00:26:04,905 --> 00:26:07,325
Um, I think it's absolutely right actually that we're,

663
00:26:07,325 --> 00:26:10,685
we're not, and what we need to do is work harder to have

664
00:26:11,525 --> 00:26:14,445
actually the kind of the human relationships with the people

665
00:26:14,505 --> 00:26:16,285
as and when we're in the office with them talking

666
00:26:16,385 --> 00:26:17,445
to them, you know?

667
00:26:17,465 --> 00:26:20,885
So I spend, um, a lot of time, um,

668
00:26:21,145 --> 00:26:23,125
in the kinda the kitchen social space, talking

669
00:26:23,125 --> 00:26:24,485
to people while I'm making cups of coffee.

670
00:26:24,505 --> 00:26:25,805
And I justify that by saying,

671
00:26:25,805 --> 00:26:27,285
this is very much me doing something.

672
00:26:27,285 --> 00:26:29,165
This is networking. This is an important work task.

673
00:26:29,425 --> 00:26:31,125
And it is correct, You

674
00:26:31,125 --> 00:26:33,965
know, as, as I take the next 10 minutes to, you know,

675
00:26:33,965 --> 00:26:35,805
make a very, very slow cup of coffee.

676
00:26:35,865 --> 00:26:38,085
But you, you know, genuinely, like you ha you, you just,

677
00:26:38,085 --> 00:26:39,285
you have to make the effort in otherwise

678
00:26:39,585 --> 00:26:41,445
and recognise that that is the trade-off.

679
00:26:42,105 --> 00:26:44,565
Um, let's delve a little bit into that,

680
00:26:44,675 --> 00:26:46,645
that office set up.

681
00:26:46,835 --> 00:26:50,645
Have you mandated a number of days to be in the office?

682
00:26:51,185 --> 00:26:54,645
We have asked people on average to be in one day a week.

683
00:26:55,615 --> 00:26:57,365
Asked people, what does that mean? Well,

684
00:26:57,855 --> 00:26:59,525
again, this comes to the trust piece.

685
00:26:59,655 --> 00:27:03,765
We're not sitting there watching some log

686
00:27:03,865 --> 00:27:05,725
of the whole piece and saying, well,

687
00:27:05,895 --> 00:27:07,205
every single person needs

688
00:27:07,205 --> 00:27:09,925
to be in the office one day a week, every single week.

689
00:27:10,235 --> 00:27:12,045
Because for our business, that's,

690
00:27:12,225 --> 00:27:14,165
that's not a straightforward thing.

691
00:27:14,165 --> 00:27:16,805
They might be in one of, one of our six offices.

692
00:27:16,995 --> 00:27:18,445
They might be in a client's office.

693
00:27:18,595 --> 00:27:21,885
They might be off-site with a client

694
00:27:21,985 --> 00:27:23,485
or a team somewhere

695
00:27:23,485 --> 00:27:25,485
that's neither the client's office nor our office.

696
00:27:25,585 --> 00:27:27,525
But those are all offices.

697
00:27:27,555 --> 00:27:29,325
It's that face-to-face thing is ultimately,

698
00:27:29,385 --> 00:27:30,845
so we talk about it's face-to-face time.

699
00:27:30,945 --> 00:27:34,565
That's the, the delineating factor, not the office. And

700
00:27:34,565 --> 00:27:36,245
have people gone along with that? There

701
00:27:36,245 --> 00:27:37,285
is, there is some resistance.

702
00:27:37,745 --> 00:27:40,165
Um, there is mostly people who have gone along with it.

703
00:27:40,265 --> 00:27:41,765
Uh, where there's resistance is

704
00:27:41,765 --> 00:27:45,245
because, um, people have typically moved

705
00:27:45,865 --> 00:27:47,805
during lockdown further

706
00:27:47,865 --> 00:27:50,405
and further away from, from their hub.

707
00:27:50,945 --> 00:27:52,965
And wherever the hub is, they have that face to face time.

708
00:27:52,985 --> 00:27:55,285
So it's just becomes logistically slightly more challenging.

709
00:27:55,705 --> 00:27:58,925
But on the whole, not every single person,

710
00:27:58,945 --> 00:28:02,285
but on the whole, everyone is recognises the

711
00:28:02,285 --> 00:28:03,565
value of face-to-face time.

712
00:28:04,145 --> 00:28:07,645
You often hear from senior management

713
00:28:09,035 --> 00:28:13,405
that, particularly since Covid, people tend

714
00:28:13,405 --> 00:28:16,245
to prioritise their personal needs,

715
00:28:16,685 --> 00:28:19,605
personal inconvenience over a communal

716
00:28:19,755 --> 00:28:20,965
gain from being together.

717
00:28:21,295 --> 00:28:22,605
Would you agree? Yes.

718
00:28:23,965 --> 00:28:26,265
Um, but I think there's a, I I also think there,

719
00:28:26,445 --> 00:28:28,625
people are starting to recognise

720
00:28:28,625 --> 00:28:30,185
that the bounce has gone too far one way.

721
00:28:30,925 --> 00:28:35,185
Um, I think, you know, so Scott Logic, every year takes on

722
00:28:35,825 --> 00:28:37,065
a significant number of graduates.

723
00:28:37,225 --> 00:28:39,945
I was one in the first ever graduate intake that we had.

724
00:28:40,485 --> 00:28:43,345
Um, and especially for those more, uh, people,

725
00:28:43,345 --> 00:28:46,945
early stage career, junior people, um, they might be alien

726
00:28:47,205 --> 00:28:48,345
to the city.

727
00:28:48,885 --> 00:28:51,185
Um, so they need to start building human connections,

728
00:28:51,605 --> 00:28:54,785
but also to learn how to do their job yet.

729
00:28:54,885 --> 00:28:56,865
So some of it can be done by training, some

730
00:28:56,865 --> 00:28:59,065
of it can be done by being taught and directed.

731
00:28:59,355 --> 00:29:01,225
Quite a lot of it needs to happen just by osmosis

732
00:29:01,225 --> 00:29:02,505
and being in a space where that happens.

733
00:29:02,765 --> 00:29:06,865
So there's a real desire from that end of, of the sort

734
00:29:06,865 --> 00:29:09,345
of the career spectrum to have more people there.

735
00:29:09,725 --> 00:29:11,785
But if only junior people are present,

736
00:29:12,335 --> 00:29:14,025
they've got no one to learn from.

737
00:29:14,025 --> 00:29:15,185
They've got no one to pick that up from.

738
00:29:15,525 --> 00:29:16,625
Uh, but also they,

739
00:29:16,625 --> 00:29:18,425
they typically in their personal circumstances,

740
00:29:18,515 --> 00:29:19,985
don't necessarily have the dependence

741
00:29:20,205 --> 00:29:24,065
or the luxury of a house or flat

742
00:29:24,065 --> 00:29:26,625
or whatever it is, um, the space to do, to be

743
00:29:26,625 --> 00:29:27,945
as comfortable as more senior people.

744
00:29:28,245 --> 00:29:30,385
But I think that's where, you know, in

745
00:29:30,565 --> 00:29:31,985
as a senior team in Scott Logic,

746
00:29:32,125 --> 00:29:33,345
we have agreed amongst ourselves.

747
00:29:33,345 --> 00:29:36,985
Like we can't, we can't just sit at home saying,

748
00:29:37,225 --> 00:29:38,225
everyone else has to do this.

749
00:29:38,485 --> 00:29:41,285
If anything, we have to be more, um, present,

750
00:29:41,285 --> 00:29:42,645
presently present than anyone else.

751
00:29:43,385 --> 00:29:45,285
Um, because we have to lead by example.

752
00:29:45,705 --> 00:29:49,485
And actually we are probably one of the, um, touch points

753
00:29:49,485 --> 00:29:52,485
that most people need to have. So that's the attitude.

754
00:29:53,055 --> 00:29:55,525
Yours is a completely different setup. Yes.

755
00:29:55,525 --> 00:29:56,885
Um, at Altitude Foundation,

756
00:29:56,885 --> 00:29:59,885
because you are, are you barely in the office

757
00:30:00,035 --> 00:30:01,245
because of your job?

758
00:30:01,915 --> 00:30:03,525
Well, it, it, I mean, it, it's interesting

759
00:30:03,525 --> 00:30:05,885
because, you know, we, we, um, have a couple

760
00:30:05,885 --> 00:30:06,965
of young people, uh,

761
00:30:06,965 --> 00:30:08,405
with us doing work experience at the moment.

762
00:30:08,425 --> 00:30:09,805
And one of the things that they said on,

763
00:30:09,805 --> 00:30:12,045
I think the second day with us, was that they were amazed at

764
00:30:12,045 --> 00:30:14,485
how much time we did spend at our desks is they thought we

765
00:30:14,485 --> 00:30:16,045
would never be sitting at our desks.

766
00:30:16,585 --> 00:30:18,525
So for different reasons,

767
00:30:18,785 --> 00:30:22,325
but I think kind of similarly to Scott Logic, we,

768
00:30:22,385 --> 00:30:25,645
we have never really struggled with the, the idea

769
00:30:25,645 --> 00:30:28,805
of the concept of, um, hybrid and remote working

770
00:30:29,235 --> 00:30:33,165
because you can't do what we do without being out and about.

771
00:30:33,625 --> 00:30:37,845
And so you, you, you set up systems and processes

772
00:30:37,845 --> 00:30:40,125
and ways of working, um, that,

773
00:30:40,235 --> 00:30:42,765
that naturally facilitate that.

774
00:30:43,185 --> 00:30:46,205
And, you know, all of the, the sort of the, you know,

775
00:30:46,205 --> 00:30:49,565
the IT setup, for example, that we've got is, you know,

776
00:30:49,725 --> 00:30:52,725
deliberately and intentionally, you know, cloud-based,

777
00:30:52,725 --> 00:30:55,525
accessible from anywhere, accessible from anything so

778
00:30:55,525 --> 00:30:57,845
that people can engage

779
00:30:57,875 --> 00:31:00,205
with the team no matter where they are.

780
00:31:01,025 --> 00:31:05,375
Um, and I, I find it difficult to sort of think of how,

781
00:31:05,375 --> 00:31:06,495
how else you would do it, frankly.

782
00:31:06,875 --> 00:31:09,175
So do I, I mean, what I see, I think you guys just,

783
00:31:09,295 --> 00:31:10,655
'cause it's a smaller team and there's one,

784
00:31:11,165 --> 00:31:12,815
there's one location, the office.

785
00:31:13,235 --> 00:31:14,255
But what I see that's

786
00:31:14,255 --> 00:31:16,175
so beautiful about it is there's a gravitational

787
00:31:16,175 --> 00:31:17,255
pull towards it, right?

788
00:31:17,475 --> 00:31:19,455
If, if one of you is sitting going, well,

789
00:31:19,665 --> 00:31:21,855
where would I find other Altitude people?

790
00:31:22,125 --> 00:31:25,455
It's in that office. Mm-Hmm. Is the most likely answer.

791
00:31:25,795 --> 00:31:28,815
So that being the hub for, you know, this sort of, it sounds

792
00:31:28,815 --> 00:31:31,975
so corny, but community that exists around the entity

793
00:31:31,975 --> 00:31:34,215
that is Altitude or the entity that is Scott Logic,

794
00:31:34,355 --> 00:31:37,055
that's the sort of feel, um, that I, I think it's important

795
00:31:37,055 --> 00:31:39,815
to create and that's why it's important to invest in,

796
00:31:39,915 --> 00:31:41,735
in the physical space, make it nice,

797
00:31:41,765 --> 00:31:44,735
make it in a convenient location, all those kinds of things.

798
00:31:44,995 --> 00:31:46,215
Um, I think that's really important.

799
00:31:46,635 --> 00:31:51,615
We talked about the necessity to keep information private

800
00:31:52,195 --> 00:31:53,895
and immediately you think, oh, it's Scott Logic

801
00:31:53,995 --> 00:31:55,575
and NDAs and all the rest of it.

802
00:31:55,635 --> 00:31:59,335
But actually I imagine a lot of that security is more

803
00:31:59,335 --> 00:32:00,975
around Altitude's work

804
00:32:00,975 --> 00:32:04,495
because you'll be working with parents, carers,

805
00:32:05,125 --> 00:32:08,335
schools in very sensitive areas?

806
00:32:08,755 --> 00:32:11,975
So one of the sort of the, the, the interest

807
00:32:12,075 --> 00:32:13,855
and ah, there's that word again.

808
00:32:14,295 --> 00:32:18,575
Um, A, a memory I have of kind of the first couple

809
00:32:18,575 --> 00:32:23,175
of weeks of, of starting, um, way back when, um, was,

810
00:32:23,715 --> 00:32:26,125
you know, I, I was getting set up on a desk, um,

811
00:32:27,025 --> 00:32:30,245
and I had to say to the people that were getting me set up,

812
00:32:30,645 --> 00:32:31,765
I, I cannot sit here.

813
00:32:31,985 --> 00:32:34,045
And they were like, why not? It's, it's a and I said,

814
00:32:34,045 --> 00:32:36,085
because everybody can see my screen.

815
00:32:36,145 --> 00:32:38,045
And I'm telling you now that once we start working

816
00:32:38,155 --> 00:32:41,205
with young people, I'm gonna have some incredibly sensitive

817
00:32:41,205 --> 00:32:43,725
information on here, um, about them,

818
00:32:43,775 --> 00:32:45,925
about their personal circumstances potentially.

819
00:32:46,145 --> 00:32:48,005
And I said, but you can't know that.

820
00:32:48,515 --> 00:32:51,845
Like, I, I, I just cannot share that with you

821
00:32:51,985 --> 00:32:53,605
and you're gonna have to put me somewhere else.

822
00:32:54,145 --> 00:32:57,445
And so right from the get go, there was a, a kinda,

823
00:32:58,105 --> 00:33:01,245
you know, a kinda culture shock thing of, oh,

824
00:33:01,245 --> 00:33:02,325
I never really thought about it like that

825
00:33:02,325 --> 00:33:04,805
because I think there was a sort of sense of, well,

826
00:33:04,805 --> 00:33:05,805
we've gotta think about, you know,

827
00:33:05,805 --> 00:33:06,805
that sensitive client

828
00:33:06,805 --> 00:33:08,085
information and all that kind of thing.

829
00:33:08,085 --> 00:33:09,245
And I had to say, well, no, actually,

830
00:33:09,245 --> 00:33:12,005
like we are gonna have sensitive information as well. Um,

831
00:33:12,105 --> 00:33:13,165
Did that affect the dynamic?

832
00:33:13,635 --> 00:33:17,165
Because in, in many ways, you know, you planted the seeds

833
00:33:17,165 --> 00:33:20,845
for Altitude Foundation, so I can kind of picture

834
00:33:20,945 --> 00:33:23,365
that's the way the hierarchy goes, that

835
00:33:23,935 --> 00:33:25,565
Scott Logic takes the precedent.

836
00:33:25,565 --> 00:33:28,805
However, in the field you are in, nobody would argue

837
00:33:28,835 --> 00:33:32,565
with you that, you know, dealing with children

838
00:33:33,275 --> 00:33:35,685
sometimes from very complex backgrounds.

839
00:33:35,715 --> 00:33:38,885
Yeah. That has to be more important. Surely?

840
00:33:39,305 --> 00:33:40,405
Uh, it, it can be.

841
00:33:40,485 --> 00:33:42,525
I mean, I, so my defence would be, some

842
00:33:42,525 --> 00:33:45,685
of the work we're doing is on, for example, the Department

843
00:33:45,685 --> 00:33:48,005
for Pensions, you're building systems for them.

844
00:33:48,385 --> 00:33:52,525
It has that kind of information for millions of citizens.

845
00:33:52,625 --> 00:33:53,965
So like, it, it is,

846
00:33:54,065 --> 00:33:55,845
is different versions of that same security.

847
00:33:56,025 --> 00:33:58,525
Touche! We have more.

848
00:33:58,985 --> 00:34:00,925
Um, But yours is, anyway,

849
00:34:00,925 --> 00:34:02,005
there is all those different things,

850
00:34:02,005 --> 00:34:05,045
but that's, that's just having respect for one another.

851
00:34:05,075 --> 00:34:07,085
Yeah. Uh, and for, for the needs of, again,

852
00:34:07,085 --> 00:34:09,405
what these entities require to exist.

853
00:34:09,825 --> 00:34:11,525
But you've got a bit of a DMZ going

854
00:34:11,525 --> 00:34:12,605
on on, haven't you? We do,

855
00:34:12,945 --> 00:34:13,945
but we need that anyway.

856
00:34:14,185 --> 00:34:16,365
Um, for, for clients coming in.

857
00:34:16,915 --> 00:34:20,845
Like there is, whether it's by sheer luck

858
00:34:20,845 --> 00:34:22,525
because of the nature of our businesses

859
00:34:22,705 --> 00:34:24,845
or our purposes, whatever it is,

860
00:34:25,625 --> 00:34:27,405
is there's a very similar need there,

861
00:34:27,405 --> 00:34:31,925
which is we need private spaces, we need to have some, uh,

862
00:34:32,035 --> 00:34:33,645
obfuscation from what we are doing.

863
00:34:33,825 --> 00:34:36,005
And not everyone can see everything that everyone's up to.

864
00:34:36,455 --> 00:34:41,445
Scott Logic is founded pretty much on graduates.

865
00:34:41,445 --> 00:34:42,605
Yeah. You being one of them.

866
00:34:43,305 --> 00:34:46,325
Um, and I mean, the numbers are staggering actually in

867
00:34:46,645 --> 00:34:49,725
proportion to your number of staff at at, at its peak,

868
00:34:49,785 --> 00:34:51,725
how many graduates did you have in?

869
00:34:52,085 --> 00:34:54,365
I think there was, uh, a couple

870
00:34:54,365 --> 00:34:56,325
of years ago we had 60 odd graduates

871
00:34:56,325 --> 00:34:57,685
that came in across three cohorts,

872
00:34:57,685 --> 00:35:00,965
but I think the biggest cohort individual cohorts about 35.

873
00:35:01,625 --> 00:35:04,325
Um, and that's against like total workforce of 450.

874
00:35:04,545 --> 00:35:08,885
So I think I, I checked just the other day about 40%

875
00:35:08,885 --> 00:35:11,205
of all headcount in the business joined

876
00:35:11,205 --> 00:35:12,205
through the graduate program.

877
00:35:12,465 --> 00:35:14,885
Do you also do a kind of work culture refresh

878
00:35:15,025 --> 00:35:18,085
by bringing in somebody new every year, don't you?

879
00:35:18,085 --> 00:35:21,125
Yeah, yeah. So we, we, we bring in, um, uh,

880
00:35:21,365 --> 00:35:22,885
either a graduate, um,

881
00:35:23,185 --> 00:35:25,725
or someone on a work placement as part of their, their,

882
00:35:25,725 --> 00:35:27,685
their degree, um, every year.

883
00:35:27,825 --> 00:35:30,725
And the, the, the whole idea is that they get, you know,

884
00:35:30,845 --> 00:35:33,965
a kind of structured year, early stage career kind of thing.

885
00:35:34,425 --> 00:35:39,285
Um, it, it works for them, um, uh, as a kinda, you know,

886
00:35:39,285 --> 00:35:40,605
first job quite often.

887
00:35:40,825 --> 00:35:42,485
Um, it works for us because it means

888
00:35:42,485 --> 00:35:44,925
that we're bringing in someone new fresh perspective on a

889
00:35:44,925 --> 00:35:47,685
regular basis, keeping things kinda, um, taken over.

890
00:35:47,705 --> 00:35:49,325
It works for the young people because it means

891
00:35:49,325 --> 00:35:54,005
that typically they have somebody who is, um, much more,

892
00:35:54,625 --> 00:35:56,125
um, relatable, um,

893
00:35:56,125 --> 00:35:58,565
because I'm very conscious that they, they look at me

894
00:35:58,705 --> 00:36:01,245
as someone who is like impossibly ancient.

895
00:36:01,845 --> 00:36:04,885
Um, you know, this sort of like, you know,

896
00:36:04,885 --> 00:36:06,205
decrepit old figure coming in

897
00:36:06,205 --> 00:36:08,005
and talking about what it was like in the olden days,

898
00:36:08,175 --> 00:36:09,725
which I try not to get offended by,

899
00:36:09,725 --> 00:36:11,285
but you, you know, they, I think

900
00:36:11,285 --> 00:36:12,325
it matters for the young people.

901
00:36:12,325 --> 00:36:14,645
They actually have someone that is closer in age to them

902
00:36:14,665 --> 00:36:18,645
who can then, um, you, you know, sort of speak to them

903
00:36:19,465 --> 00:36:22,645
in a way that sort of resonates better than maybe I could.

904
00:36:23,185 --> 00:36:24,525
Um, but that means then

905
00:36:24,555 --> 00:36:26,245
that you need to be around for those people.

906
00:36:26,345 --> 00:36:27,885
You need to make sure that you're providing 'em

907
00:36:27,885 --> 00:36:29,845
with support in the same kind of way it actually works,

908
00:36:29,845 --> 00:36:31,445
to be honest with you, in terms of the way

909
00:36:31,445 --> 00:36:33,885
that we deliver our program, that, you know, some

910
00:36:33,885 --> 00:36:35,405
of the things that Graham's describing there,

911
00:36:35,525 --> 00:36:37,525
I think we kinda learned that, you know,

912
00:36:38,005 --> 00:36:40,045
whenever we were going through lockdowns

913
00:36:40,045 --> 00:36:41,725
and things like that, there was an expectation that,

914
00:36:41,725 --> 00:36:43,485
you know, Altitude Foundation's gonna be fine, right?

915
00:36:43,505 --> 00:36:46,165
You know, you know, techy charity focused on digital stuff,

916
00:36:46,165 --> 00:36:47,965
all about programming and coding news are gonna be laughing.

917
00:36:48,035 --> 00:36:49,165
Well, actually no,

918
00:36:49,275 --> 00:36:52,405
because the young people that we're working with, um,

919
00:36:52,625 --> 00:36:55,485
you know, typically were, you know, really struggling, um,

920
00:36:55,485 --> 00:36:56,885
as a result of the digital divide.

921
00:36:57,305 --> 00:36:59,965
Um, you know, probably didn't have access to tech at home,

922
00:36:59,965 --> 00:37:01,965
stable broadband connection, all of those kind of things

923
00:37:01,965 --> 00:37:03,085
that a lot of us take for granted.

924
00:37:03,705 --> 00:37:05,165
Um, and even

925
00:37:05,215 --> 00:37:07,285
after, you know, we thought, well, there's an op, you know,

926
00:37:07,285 --> 00:37:10,085
an opportunity here to try and deliver some of our stuff,

927
00:37:10,265 --> 00:37:11,685
um, you know, remotely in the schools.

928
00:37:12,065 --> 00:37:15,845
And actually really the, the, the honest reason

929
00:37:15,845 --> 00:37:18,965
of the matter is it, you know, we can't really do what we do

930
00:37:18,965 --> 00:37:21,565
with our young people unless we are in with them.

931
00:37:22,225 --> 00:37:25,405
You know, you just can't do that remotely in the same way

932
00:37:26,855 --> 00:37:28,665
Work culture, um,

933
00:37:28,745 --> 00:37:30,825
whether you are looking at your own companies,

934
00:37:30,935 --> 00:37:32,385
your own organisations

935
00:37:32,645 --> 00:37:36,025
or clients that you've worked with, I want you

936
00:37:36,025 --> 00:37:39,465
to give me some, these are great things

937
00:37:39,775 --> 00:37:40,825
that should be deployed.

938
00:37:40,885 --> 00:37:42,825
And I've seen that as a, as a, as something

939
00:37:42,825 --> 00:37:44,945
that we should be doing or we already are doing,

940
00:37:45,245 --> 00:37:46,425
and some red flags

941
00:37:46,865 --> 00:37:48,385
Spending time with each other on things

942
00:37:48,385 --> 00:37:50,025
that aren't about the work that you share.

943
00:37:50,965 --> 00:37:54,785
Um, because I, I, you know, you, you can build really,

944
00:37:54,785 --> 00:37:56,705
really good relationships with the people that you work

945
00:37:56,705 --> 00:37:59,505
with, that, that are entirely based on the work

946
00:37:59,505 --> 00:38:00,505
that you do together.

947
00:38:01,205 --> 00:38:02,945
And that means then that whenever you don't have

948
00:38:02,945 --> 00:38:05,625
that work in common, you've got nothing to talk about.

949
00:38:05,785 --> 00:38:08,185
I know that, you know, one of my team, um, you know,

950
00:38:08,185 --> 00:38:09,265
really enjoys football.

951
00:38:09,445 --> 00:38:12,505
Um, it's not necessarily my thing to be honest with you,

952
00:38:12,525 --> 00:38:13,985
but I, I'll always ask, you know,

953
00:38:13,985 --> 00:38:15,865
how the match went on the weekend and things like that,

954
00:38:16,125 --> 00:38:17,945
and we've now got a bit of a, a rapport

955
00:38:17,965 --> 00:38:19,945
and, you know, something that we will the

956
00:38:19,945 --> 00:38:21,065
two of us sort of talk about.

957
00:38:21,405 --> 00:38:23,625
So I think, you know, always trying to find something

958
00:38:23,705 --> 00:38:25,825
that isn't work, which means that

959
00:38:26,025 --> 00:38:27,705
whenever the work's removed for whatever reason,

960
00:38:27,765 --> 00:38:29,145
be it like you've gone out for an evening

961
00:38:29,145 --> 00:38:30,345
because there's a staff do,

962
00:38:30,405 --> 00:38:31,985
or, you know, you bump into each

963
00:38:31,985 --> 00:38:33,065
other on the weekend or whatever.

964
00:38:33,135 --> 00:38:34,585
There's, there's something that you share

965
00:38:34,585 --> 00:38:35,870
that isn't just your work.

966
00:38:35,905 --> 00:38:38,885
Um, I think the red flag for me is, is a,

967
00:38:38,985 --> 00:38:43,685
an over strictness with, um, things like start

968
00:38:43,685 --> 00:38:45,485
and end times and stuff like that.

969
00:38:46,065 --> 00:38:49,045
Um, you know, so I, I know, um, from, you know,

970
00:38:49,285 --> 00:38:51,725
previous jobs that I've done, um, when, you know, I've,

971
00:38:51,725 --> 00:38:54,525
I've worked in teams where they've been pretty relaxed.

972
00:38:54,545 --> 00:38:55,605
You know, if you need to turn up late

973
00:38:55,605 --> 00:38:57,245
because you've got an appointment or something, if you need

974
00:38:57,245 --> 00:38:59,045
to leave early because you know, you,

975
00:38:59,045 --> 00:39:00,045
you gotta pick the kids up

976
00:39:00,045 --> 00:39:02,285
or whatever, that's fine as long as the job gets done.

977
00:39:02,825 --> 00:39:04,405
And then other teams in, you know,

978
00:39:04,405 --> 00:39:07,725
in the same open plan space, you know, who are being very,

979
00:39:07,725 --> 00:39:09,725
very driven by, you must be sitting down by nine.

980
00:39:10,265 --> 00:39:13,405
Um, and then I know for a fact that they will all get up

981
00:39:13,405 --> 00:39:15,765
and leave at five, you know, sort of thing.

982
00:39:15,785 --> 00:39:17,405
And I, and I think sometimes you actually,

983
00:39:17,665 --> 00:39:21,485
you get a lot more outta people by saying, I recognise

984
00:39:21,485 --> 00:39:23,045
that work is one part of your life.

985
00:39:23,105 --> 00:39:24,565
It is not all of your life. Yeah.

986
00:39:25,115 --> 00:39:26,445
Yeah. I couldn't agree more with that.

987
00:39:26,705 --> 00:39:27,925
And I think this is one

988
00:39:27,925 --> 00:39:30,685
of the things I was gonna call about a good sign in a work

989
00:39:30,685 --> 00:39:33,285
culture is, uh, I guess humanity

990
00:39:33,345 --> 00:39:34,805
and humility, especially

991
00:39:34,805 --> 00:39:38,285
amongst senior people in the organisation, um, recognising

992
00:39:38,285 --> 00:39:40,565
that they have a life that's not work,

993
00:39:40,625 --> 00:39:42,165
or they should have a life that's not work.

994
00:39:42,665 --> 00:39:44,325
But also that, you know, mistakes happen

995
00:39:44,665 --> 00:39:46,685
and being, being open

996
00:39:46,985 --> 00:39:51,365
and, uh, willing to show fallibility out there, um,

997
00:39:52,185 --> 00:39:53,485
and show you personality,

998
00:39:53,705 --> 00:39:56,645
but, you know, not, not toxic personality, but,

999
00:39:56,785 --> 00:39:58,085
but showing that people are people.

1000
00:39:58,345 --> 00:39:59,885
Um, and I think that that's one of the,

1001
00:39:59,945 --> 00:40:02,445
the key pieces in there is yeah, if you start to turn

1002
00:40:03,065 --> 00:40:07,925
any aspect of work into, uh, some form of machinery,

1003
00:40:08,165 --> 00:40:11,165
a system clocking in and out is a, a system, it's a machine.

1004
00:40:11,545 --> 00:40:14,285
Um, and there's no, there's no grey areas around.

1005
00:40:14,285 --> 00:40:16,205
It's all black and white. That's where it starts

1006
00:40:16,205 --> 00:40:17,805
to go wrong, in my experience.

1007
00:40:18,265 --> 00:40:22,285
And one very good thing in terms of work culture? Uh,

1008
00:40:22,595 --> 00:40:24,845
good thing, oh, I guess

1009
00:40:26,155 --> 00:40:27,645
when there's trust and fun.

1010
00:40:27,825 --> 00:40:31,965
So I'm a big proponent that the, the most sort

1011
00:40:31,965 --> 00:40:33,445
of creativity you can produce,

1012
00:40:33,465 --> 00:40:36,365
the most productivity you can have comes with some fun.

1013
00:40:36,705 --> 00:40:40,125
You have to, uh, play with what you are doing.

1014
00:40:40,225 --> 00:40:42,325
Uh, and I, I see this through my, my kids.

1015
00:40:42,465 --> 00:40:44,525
How do the kids learn at the younger stage?

1016
00:40:44,685 --> 00:40:46,085
Well, they, they play with stuff, right?

1017
00:40:46,085 --> 00:40:48,005
And they take the blocks and shove 'em in their mouth

1018
00:40:48,025 --> 00:40:50,485
or do whatever the things are that you learn not to do.

1019
00:40:50,985 --> 00:40:54,725
Um, but for some reason, in, in, in some workplaces, you get

1020
00:40:54,725 --> 00:40:57,325
to a point where playfulness is discouraged,

1021
00:40:57,515 --> 00:40:58,685
take everything seriously.

1022
00:40:58,945 --> 00:41:02,765
And I said, no, to, to take something seriously.

1023
00:41:03,265 --> 00:41:04,685
you should be playing with it.

1024
00:41:05,105 --> 00:41:09,125
So the the positive I love is be playful. What he's 

1025
00:41:09,945 --> 00:41:11,125
saying is the robot is okay.

1026
00:41:11,155 --> 00:41:13,845
Yeah. Driving the robot is okay.

1027
00:41:14,325 --> 00:41:15,565
I knew it! I knew it!

1028
00:41:17,695 --> 00:41:21,005
Thank you guys for being so open with your stories

1029
00:41:21,225 --> 00:41:22,765
and your opinions today.

1030
00:41:23,275 --> 00:41:24,565
Graham Odds from Scott Logic

1031
00:41:24,945 --> 00:41:27,925
and Colin Ferguson of Altitude Foundation.

1032
00:41:29,325 --> 00:41:32,125
I feel we've really got to grips with what it takes

1033
00:41:32,185 --> 00:41:34,005
to bake a real life,

1034
00:41:34,475 --> 00:41:37,445
real money investment into social responsibility.

1035
00:41:38,465 --> 00:41:40,565
Yes, they admitted it makes good PR,

1036
00:41:41,225 --> 00:41:43,565
but there's a whole lot more in practice.

1037
00:41:43,625 --> 00:41:45,045
If you want to do more than tick

1038
00:41:45,045 --> 00:41:47,765
that CSR box in your values, you need

1039
00:41:47,765 --> 00:41:49,445
to get the moral contract right.

1040
00:41:49,955 --> 00:41:54,285
Base it on trust, base it on good communication, make tough,

1041
00:41:54,545 --> 00:41:56,565
but considered decisions about

1042
00:41:56,565 --> 00:42:00,085
where the boundaries lie in the actual office and on paper.

1043
00:42:00,585 --> 00:42:04,045
And then everyone can win - from your employees

1044
00:42:04,265 --> 00:42:05,405
to the wider community.

1045
00:42:06,305 --> 00:42:09,245
So however, and wherever you are listening

1046
00:42:09,245 --> 00:42:11,725
or watching Both Sides of the Desk, thank you.

1047
00:42:12,115 --> 00:42:13,645
This is all about sharing ideas

1048
00:42:13,705 --> 00:42:16,605
to create a more positive work culture for everyone.

1049
00:42:16,945 --> 00:42:18,365
So please subscribe to the podcast

1050
00:42:18,625 --> 00:42:20,405
and share it with your friends and colleagues.

1051
00:42:21,115 --> 00:42:24,285
Data shows that positive work culture boosts productivity,

1052
00:42:24,835 --> 00:42:27,685
reduces staff turnover, and makes people happier.

1053
00:42:28,305 --> 00:42:29,365
What's not to love?

1054
00:42:29,595 --> 00:42:32,005
Well, we'd love you to join the conversation too.

1055
00:42:32,275 --> 00:42:35,085
Drop us a message on the socials for Newcastle Helix,

1056
00:42:35,085 --> 00:42:38,165
whether that's LinkedIn, X, Facebook, Instagram,

1057
00:42:38,345 --> 00:42:39,645
or the YouTube channel.

1058
00:42:40,225 --> 00:42:42,205
We are all about collaboration here.

1059
00:42:42,305 --> 00:42:45,125
So on that note, this video podcast was filmed with the help

1060
00:42:45,125 --> 00:42:48,165
of the incredible team at the Lumen Building on the

1061
00:42:48,165 --> 00:42:49,685
Newcastle Helix site.

1062
00:42:49,985 --> 00:42:53,325
It was filmed and directed by Chris Taylor, filmed

1063
00:42:53,325 --> 00:42:55,725
and edited by Jordan McDonald, mixed

1064
00:42:55,725 --> 00:42:58,725
and mastered by Andy at Blast Studios, and produced

1065
00:42:58,745 --> 00:43:00,965
and presented by me, Charlie Charlton.

1066
00:43:01,185 --> 00:43:04,605
The concept emerged in collaboration with Di Gates

1067
00:43:04,745 --> 00:43:05,805
of Connection Heroes.

1068
00:43:06,115 --> 00:43:08,805
This is a development program all about the value

1069
00:43:08,905 --> 00:43:10,925
of human connection at work.

1070
00:43:11,945 --> 00:43:15,285
So from the happy team here at Newcastle Helix, thanks

1071
00:43:15,305 --> 00:43:15,885
for listening.