Both Sides of the Desk - Episode 3: Womble Bond Dickinson

Brought to you by Newcastle Helix.

Both Sides of the Desk. One boss. One employee. Talk work culture.

Host Charlie Charlton is caught between two key players from the international law firm Womble Bond Dickinson. On one side of the desk is Partner Ian Atkinson, on the other is Legal Director-turned-Salaried Partner Francesca Hodgson. They discuss how the legal industry is changing, including practical ways to encourage a diverse, sustainable workforce. 

They examine the various ways to engineer social mobility and to bring together a hybrid workforce under shared values. This includes the transformative impact of investing in a building where the best office space isn't for Partners' offices but for a staff canteen.

For Francesca, there are two ladders to climb: navigating her career in law with a working-class background, and the shift to Partner, which is a male-dominated position. That's despite way more women than men choosing a career in law. 

While Ian’s upbringing is different, he still understands the importance of sourcing talent from all walks of life. He shares how WBD achieves this through contextualised recruitment, and follows it up with flexible working patterns that work alongside clients' needs.

Listen to Charlie, Francesca, and Ian as they tackle some tricky topics.

 
CREDITS:

In conversation: Ian Atkinson & Francesca Hodgson - Womble Bond Dickinson

Producer/Presenter/Editor: Charlie Charlton 

Camera/Director: Chris Taylor 

Camera/Editor: Jordan McDonald 

Sound Producer: Andy Bell, Blast Studios 

Social Producer: Natalie Eminae, OCOCO 

Media Exec Producers: Newcastle Helix Partnership + John Seager 

In collaboration with Di Gates, Connection Heroes 

Filmed on location in The Lumen Building, Newcastle Helix Big thanks to the whole community of the Helix Innovation District in Newcastle-upon-Tyne, England.

 You can also see Charlie Charlton and her guests in action:

https://www.youtube.com/@newcastlehelix2403


FURTHER READING:

 The Law Society: Building a more caring legal industry

https://www.lawsociety.org.uk/topics/hr-and-people-management/building-a-more-caring-legal-industry

 Solicitor’s Regulation Authority: Diversity in law firms' workforce

https://www.sra.org.uk/sra/equality-diversity/diversity-profession/diverse-legal-profession/

 Law Gazette: Women make up 37% of law firm partners, new SRA figures show

https://www.lawgazette.co.uk/practice/women-make-up-37-of-law-firm-partners-new-sra-figures-show/5118209.article

Connect with Newcastle Helix:

• Website: https://www.newcastlehelix.com/
• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/newcastle-helix/
• X: https://x.com/newcastlehelix
• Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/newcastlehelix/
• Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/newcastlehelix/
• Email: info@newcastlehelix.com

Thanks for listening to Both Sides of the Desk. Don't forget to subscribe, rate, and join the conversation!

Chapters

• 0:00 Intro from Charlie Charlton
• 0:46 Equal opportunities in the legal profession: Francesca shares the challenges people like her face when transitioning from the North East to study somewhere like Oxford and eventually enter the law profession.
• 3:25 Social codes: Charlie poses the question of social mobility in the legal world: what do people like Francesca have to navigate?
• 4:12 Talking the talk: Francesca notes that 80-90% of the job is actually dealing with people, making these skills invaluable to those in the legal sector.
• 4:43 Grassroots: In comparison, Ian was raised by entrepreneurial parents, and this gave him an established level of social mobility. Charlie asks how they can give these opportunities to people from all backgrounds. Ian says it's about talent.
• 6:55 “Talent comes in lots of different shapes and forms”: Womble Bond Dickinson has developed contextualised recruitment method which helps to level the playing field.
• 8:42 Positive discrimination?: Charlie poses a tricky question about whether this is an issue and how to avoid it by still offering opportunities to everyone. Francesca encourages us to question how, historically, other groups have benefited.
• 11:10 “That’s a reflection on them”: Ian welcomes a challenge to traditional processes, with data and measurable outcomes supporting recruitment, ensuring the right person is hired for the job.
• 13:24 Measurable promotions: Law firms are typically different from other businesses; internal promotions require high standards to be set and achieved. The legal sector is measurable, making it easier to track and identify peoples' backgrounds.
• 14:47 A safe space away from the desk: At the firm’s Newcastle Helix office, Womble Bond Dickinson turned hierarchical office space standards on its head and transformed its most valuable area into a canteen for ALL staff. An investment that's paid off.
• 17:14 Does everyone have a say?: Charlie asks about WBD’s CSR initiatives.
• 19:27 Setting expectations for part-time workers: Ian expresses how important the values are in WBD’s culture. Charlie asks how they can make this fairer for part-time colleagues.
• 23:23 A salary war: Charlie asks about WBD’s pay grades and if it differs what colleagues earn in the North East vs the rest of the UK, and even in the US.
• 24:45 “Agnostic towards location”: Ian explores how the pandemic shifted meeting styles. It is much less important to “be in the room” now, meaning North East-based talent is now able to access London roles/salaries without moving.
• 25:58 “You can’t be competitive”: Charlie asks if there is a challenge for the business to keep hold of talent in the region, and Ian says yes. Remote working allows employees to have a better work-life balance without losing high-profile work.
• 27:20 Regional pay gaps: Charlie wants to know how many salary geo tiers there are. Charlie also challenges the notion that the North East offers ‘cheap labour’, while Ian posits that “you shouldn’t value yourself on your pay."
• 29:33 “Go back to where you came from”: Francesca shares she chose law because it offers great career prospects regardless of where you are based, she’s proud of doing the work she loves in her home city.
• 30:07 Mandating back to the office: Charlie asks the hot question about the return to the office. Francesca believes forcing people will result in negative outcomes for employers. Ian agrees, but he's concerned about keeping values in remote working.
• 33:42 Positive work culture: Charlie wants to know what’s the ‘magic dust’ to make a great workplace? Francesca and Ian give their two cents on making WBD a positive place to work.

Transcript

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Hi, welcome to Both Sides of the Desk.

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I'm Charlie Charlton, and each week we have one boss,

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one employee to talk work culture.

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Why? Well, as a journalist, I host a lot

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of business conferences

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and it is the one subject that keeps coming up.

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How do we create and keep happy high-performing teams?

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So to give the honest, sometimes awkward answers to that,

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we have the international law firm, Womble Bond Dickinson.

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On one side of the desk we have Ian

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Atkinson, a Partner with the firm.

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He specialises in the construction industry.

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And on the other side of the desk we have Francesca Hodgson,

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who specialises in regulatory and compliance issues.

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Now, she was a lowly Legal Director,

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but was promoted to Salaried Partner just

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before we recorded this episode.

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Still technically an employee though. You've got a number

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of professions where there's continually been an

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entrance point and an expectation from a class system

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that everybody would maybe prefer not

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to exist, but still does.

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So how do you encourage opportunities

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for all within the legal profession?

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And I'm gonna turn to you on this Francesca,

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because you came from a working class background.

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It was just you and your mum at home together,

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and you had this massive love of books,

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and then ended up going to Oxford to study law.

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This was an environment you didn't really know...

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Well, I never really thought of it that way.

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Sort of growing up, I'm told

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that I told my Sunday school teacher when I was six

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that I was going to Oxford, and I just didn't see the

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world that way, or I didn't think that I did.

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Um, and I'd always just sort of assumed that if I wanted

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to do something, I could do it.

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It never really occurred to me otherwise.

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Um, but having said that, when I did go to my interviews,

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I did have a bit more of a chip on my shoulder than I,

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on reflection, than I thought

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because I insisted on going in,

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everyone was quite smart and dressed up.

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I went in jeans and t-shirts

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and sort of like, this is a little bit of sort of, well,

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this is, this is who I am, sort of take it

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or leave it attitude.

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Um, and I think it was actually when I got there more

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that I realised the differences

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because some of the people

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who you meet there from a different background,

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it's just a different perspective as to what's normal.

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Um, I didn't know any lawyers growing up.

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Quite a lot of people, their parents were Partners at law

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firms, that sort of thing.

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Their ideas about what you would do in the

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summer holidays were different.

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Either some sort of internship at some city place

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or backpacking around somewhere.

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I think there's, there's the connections element

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and there's also a certain amount of polish that you get.

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Uh, if you're from a certain background, gone

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to a certain school, it's sort of trained into you more.

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And there's an ease that, um, some people will have in say,

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a networking situation or,

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or a large meeting that seems from the

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outside, just more natural.

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Um, I mean, it is acquired, all

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of these things are acquired, but when you're 25

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and other people have it

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and you don't, in the same way that it seems very natural

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to them, and you have to find your own, you have to find

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what that looks like for you, which is not acting like them,

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it's finding your own way to be in those rooms

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and, um, you know, navigate those sorts of conversations.

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So I think it's, it's polish,

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that's the word 'polish' that I would

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use. So are you talking about

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the way that you would talk

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to people, the way that you would dress

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the various interactions?

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Yeah, this, this, you know, social codes, um,

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you at a networking event,

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how do you start the conversation?

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How do you extricate yourself politely from the

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conversation, all of that sort of thing.

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Um, it takes a little while to, to pick up.

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And I think in a, to sort of slightly pivot, one

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of the things about COVID

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and people being away from the office for so long is

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that sort of irrespective of social backgrounds, the sort

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of trainees and NQTs

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and things coming in have have missed a couple of years

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of seeing how all of that works

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and having the opportunity to attend events

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and be around people and sort of learn that social stuff,

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Which would help them grow in their jobs and all.

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Yes. So it is important. It feels, uh, I don't know,

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a bit soft touch, but actually it's very important because

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Yeah, dealing with people is, you know, 80, 90%

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of the job actually.

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Yes, you have to sit down, you write advice notes,

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you write letters, all of that sort of thing.

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But actually I spend most of my day dealing with people,

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like talking on teams, talking on the phone, talking

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to colleagues, and that is a much bigger part

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of the job than people would anticipate, perhaps.

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It's fascinating hearing that I think Ian, for yourself,

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you came from what you've described,

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quite a comfortable background.

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Your, your parents were entrepreneurs

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and had a chain of successful stores.

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Um, you weren't from a a dukedom

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No, We weren't, we weren't hitting those heights!

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Um, but that level of social mobility,

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that understanding about networking and contacts

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and how to present yourself and how, how do you do that?

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So there is parity

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of opportunity within a within a company.

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Yeah. And, and that, and that's something

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that social mobility quality is something I'm really

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passionate about.

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Um, you, you want, ideally what you want

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to be doing is just identifying the best people you wanna

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be, identifying potential.

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We know we've got the right environment to then develop

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the potential and create really good lawyers.

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So how do you identify the best people when, as,

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as you've said, Francesca,

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some people naturally start from a better place than others.

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So we start by going in

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and talking to all the schools in, in the area.

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We've got people who almost their, their sole job is

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to be out there talking to schools to say,

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these are opportunities that exist

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in...How young do you start with that?

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So they'll go in and start from sort of 16

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through to 18. So

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They've already made their Options choices.

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They, they, they're thinking about the next stages.

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Yeah, they, they might, they might be thinking about

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securing professional services or whatever.

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And we, so we go along

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and one of the things we're very proud

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of is our Solicitor Apprenticeships.

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So we started our apprenticeships back in 2017,

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so quite an earlier adopter.

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We've already got lawyers now,

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qualified lawyers coming out the back of that.

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So we've demonstrated that this works,

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that we can find the right people.

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So they would join us at 18.

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And this is from schools?

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We're just talking fee-paying schools?

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Oh, absolutely not. This is across all schools in the area

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because we are just looking for talent.

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And talent comes in lots of different shapes and, and forms.

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Um, so we want to encourage those who are perhaps in schools

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that aren't the best performing schools.

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So when we are assessing candidates now, we look

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and say, how do they,

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how have they compared against their peers?

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So this person might have got three B's at A-Level,

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which is great, but actually the average at

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that school was three Ds.

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So this person's really outperforming their peers.

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If they'd gone to a fee-paying school,

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this person's probably three A's.

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And so we start to bake that in to our system so

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that when we're looking at candidates, we look at

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how they perform, but then we add in the Rare Index.

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And the other thing it it brings in is red flags.

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If, if they've qualified for school, preschool meals

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that's identified as well

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and attracts a score that pushes them a little bit further.

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So what we're trying to do is level the playing field

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to take away some of the coaching

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and privilege that some people get

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by going to a really good school.

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And they don't all have to be fee-paying schools

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because you can look in this area,

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there are some state schools that hugely outperform others.

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I mean, my school would come yes, into that

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category. Mm, certainly.

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Yours was not a fee-paying school,

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but the grades that everybody was achieving were

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considerably higher for, for the region.

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So you have to look at that

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and say, well, actually that's a really good school,

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so we are not gonna give this person as much credit

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as it were, as if they'd gone to this school here,

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which actually in special measures

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and they still managed to get three Bs. But is this

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just a form of positive discrimination and isn't...?

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I hope not. I hope not. Because what,

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What's the deal with that? How

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do we feel about, well,

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positive, positive discrimination to me means

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that you are deliberately altering the outcome

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of a system to get a desired end result.

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So you are, you are switching around the mechanism

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to get underrepresented people into a position

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where perhaps they're not best qualified to be,

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and perhaps they don't have the necessary abilities

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to perform that role.

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And that can't be right

207
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because our clients at the end of the day,

208
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want the best lawyers.

209
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What they don't want is somebody who happens to be

210
00:09:30,885 --> 00:09:33,525
a good lawyer, but from an underrepresented

211
00:09:33,525 --> 00:09:34,885
group, that's not what they want.

212
00:09:34,905 --> 00:09:36,965
So you've got to try, that's what comes down

213
00:09:36,965 --> 00:09:39,365
to identifying the best potential

214
00:09:40,465 --> 00:09:43,685
and then building from that potential.

215
00:09:44,105 --> 00:09:46,725
So positive discrimination to me can't be a good thing,

216
00:09:47,225 --> 00:09:49,005
but levelling the playing field

217
00:09:49,665 --> 00:09:54,525
and making sure that we are just looking for pure talent is,

218
00:09:54,545 --> 00:09:55,605
is what we're aiming for.

219
00:09:55,755 --> 00:09:56,885
What do you reckon to that?

220
00:09:57,665 --> 00:09:59,965
So I think that

221
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positive discrimination can be sort of a, a bit

222
00:10:04,685 --> 00:10:06,045
of a, a bit of a dirty word.

223
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But if you are trying to identify potential

224
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and level the playing field, that's the, um, you know,

225
00:10:12,325 --> 00:10:13,885
that's the way that I think about it.

226
00:10:14,445 --> 00:10:17,645
I also think that actually the people who have

227
00:10:18,165 --> 00:10:20,085
historically benefited from the structure,

228
00:10:20,185 --> 00:10:23,125
the way our society is structured, just don't realise

229
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that they have been positively discriminated

230
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against their whole lives.

231
00:10:27,025 --> 00:10:30,205
The way that the whole society is set up is in their favour,

232
00:10:30,785 --> 00:10:32,645
but that's the default, that's the norm.

233
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So any challenge to that, any scheme which disrupts that

234
00:10:38,065 --> 00:10:42,005
can be received negatively when actually who says

235
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that the way things have always been is the way

236
00:10:43,565 --> 00:10:44,925
that they should have been set up.

237
00:10:45,265 --> 00:10:46,285
Who says that just

238
00:10:46,285 --> 00:10:48,565
because you started here, you should get to go there?

239
00:10:48,665 --> 00:10:52,885
You don't get to do that. Um, so I think that part

240
00:10:52,885 --> 00:10:55,925
of the pushback, I'm less nervous about the phrase than

241
00:10:56,255 --> 00:10:59,565
other people because I think part of the pushback to that

242
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as a term and as a concept is actually it's

243
00:11:02,965 --> 00:11:04,565
challenging the structures that have been there

244
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for a long time and the people who benefited from them,

245
00:11:07,315 --> 00:11:08,525
it's gonna make them uncomfortable.

246
00:11:08,825 --> 00:11:10,005
And, and I'm okay with that.

247
00:11:10,265 --> 00:11:12,725
But, and I, and I would want to see that challenge

248
00:11:13,305 --> 00:11:18,005
to traditional processes that haven't necessarily worked.

249
00:11:18,745 --> 00:11:21,805
But if you as a candidate,

250
00:11:24,565 --> 00:11:26,805
I worked hard, got a job

251
00:11:27,105 --> 00:11:29,925
or a position in a, in a business that you really wanted,

252
00:11:30,665 --> 00:11:33,565
and then there was a sense that you got that

253
00:11:33,915 --> 00:11:37,885
because of where you'd come from rather than

254
00:11:38,545 --> 00:11:41,805
the talent you brought to that role, surely that would

255
00:11:42,875 --> 00:11:46,125
undermine your feeling of self-worth and

256
00:11:46,185 --> 00:11:47,405
and achievement, wouldn't it?

257
00:11:47,635 --> 00:11:50,245
Yeah. So I think nobody wants to, to think

258
00:11:50,245 --> 00:11:53,925
that they've got, um, a promotion or a job or anything else

259
00:11:54,155 --> 00:11:57,005
because of positive discrimination.

260
00:11:57,705 --> 00:11:58,725
Um, and

261
00:11:58,875 --> 00:12:01,405
because everybody wants to, you know, you will,

262
00:12:01,405 --> 00:12:02,685
people have earned it and they want to,

263
00:12:02,685 --> 00:12:04,565
to feel like they've earned it and that,

264
00:12:04,705 --> 00:12:08,205
but I also think you can't, you shouldn't set things up to,

265
00:12:08,305 --> 00:12:09,605
to promote that obviously.

266
00:12:09,605 --> 00:12:12,805
So the way that you explain what you're doing and, and why

267
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and what you're actually trying to achieve,

268
00:12:14,245 --> 00:12:16,285
and that you're not just trying to manipulate the outcome.

269
00:12:16,345 --> 00:12:18,445
You're trying to actually get the right people is important,

270
00:12:18,905 --> 00:12:23,325
but you also can't stop people from thinking like that.

271
00:12:23,745 --> 00:12:26,085
Um, I met somebody on holiday

272
00:12:26,085 --> 00:12:28,525
before I started Oxford, a family who said, oh,

273
00:12:28,525 --> 00:12:29,885
you must have gotten there because you're

274
00:12:30,005 --> 00:12:31,045
from a poor postcode.

275
00:12:31,595 --> 00:12:32,965
Well, she can think that if she wants.

276
00:12:33,105 --> 00:12:35,885
That's a thought that's in her head. I can't control that.

277
00:12:36,115 --> 00:12:40,205
That wasn't correct. Um, so I think that

278
00:12:40,475 --> 00:12:42,765
what you're right, that we need to be careful

279
00:12:43,035 --> 00:12:45,445
that we don't set things up so that it's sort of an easy

280
00:12:46,075 --> 00:12:48,925
sort of careless thing for people to, to throw around

281
00:12:48,945 --> 00:12:51,565
and then undermine people's credibility in that role.

282
00:12:51,985 --> 00:12:56,645
But I also think that people, you can't control what,

283
00:12:56,645 --> 00:12:58,205
how other people are going to respond

284
00:12:58,305 --> 00:12:59,925
to challenges, to the status quo.

285
00:13:00,145 --> 00:13:01,325
And that is an obvious way

286
00:13:01,325 --> 00:13:02,765
that people will sometimes respond to that.

287
00:13:03,345 --> 00:13:06,685
And so it's important that when those individuals are coming

288
00:13:06,885 --> 00:13:10,405
through the system, that the way that you are, that way

289
00:13:10,405 --> 00:13:13,725
that we're dealing with them makes them confident in

290
00:13:13,725 --> 00:13:16,925
themselves, that they do deserve it and they do earn it.

291
00:13:16,925 --> 00:13:19,085
And that if anybody does want to throw around things like

292
00:13:19,085 --> 00:13:20,525
that, well that's on them.

293
00:13:20,525 --> 00:13:21,645
That's a reflection on them

294
00:13:22,145 --> 00:13:23,925
and not a reflection on the candidate.

295
00:13:25,185 --> 00:13:29,365
And I think, again, maybe this is law firms

296
00:13:30,495 --> 00:13:32,805
being different to other businesses,

297
00:13:32,945 --> 00:13:37,525
but we, we adopt quite a bit of rigour when it comes to

298
00:13:38,165 --> 00:13:39,165
internal promotions.

299
00:13:39,625 --> 00:13:43,165
So from your, from the very first time you apply

300
00:13:43,225 --> 00:13:47,125
for promotion within our business, there are an expected set

301
00:13:47,125 --> 00:13:48,205
of performance standards

302
00:13:49,665 --> 00:13:53,085
and those are measured by an an appointments committee.

303
00:13:53,785 --> 00:13:55,085
And you're then determined as

304
00:13:55,085 --> 00:13:56,685
to whether you can be promoted or not.

305
00:13:56,825 --> 00:13:59,685
So I would like to think that

306
00:14:01,145 --> 00:14:02,845
people are able to evidence

307
00:14:03,105 --> 00:14:05,485
and line managers will be, are able to evidence

308
00:14:06,385 --> 00:14:09,205
why someone has earned that promotion

309
00:14:09,205 --> 00:14:11,125
because they can refer back

310
00:14:11,145 --> 00:14:14,165
to the application against the performance standards.

311
00:14:14,585 --> 00:14:17,925
So if there was a whiff of, um, bitterness

312
00:14:17,995 --> 00:14:21,685
because somebody had taken a promotion over somebody else

313
00:14:21,785 --> 00:14:25,805
who felt they would due that promotion, you would be able

314
00:14:25,805 --> 00:14:27,045
to have an honest conversation

315
00:14:27,505 --> 00:14:29,925
and say, well, the reason is this person

316
00:14:30,065 --> 00:14:31,405
excels here, here and here.

317
00:14:31,585 --> 00:14:34,205
You've still got the work to do here, here and here.

318
00:14:34,805 --> 00:14:38,245
I think that it does help in our industry how measurable

319
00:14:38,825 --> 00:14:42,485
things are because you can have the, the sort of data

320
00:14:42,625 --> 00:14:44,765
to back up the decisions that are being made.

321
00:14:46,015 --> 00:14:48,005
Let's talk about the investment in the building

322
00:14:48,005 --> 00:14:52,125
because you could have reconfigured your office space in

323
00:14:52,225 --> 00:14:56,925
so many ways and many people working for a big global law

324
00:14:56,925 --> 00:14:58,085
for them would assume

325
00:14:58,675 --> 00:15:01,765
that the guys at the top are gonna have the best offices

326
00:15:01,995 --> 00:15:03,085
with the best views,

327
00:15:03,265 --> 00:15:04,725
and they're gonna have the balcony,

328
00:15:04,725 --> 00:15:06,125
they're gonna have all the show.

329
00:15:06,675 --> 00:15:09,005
That isn't what happened at your place.

330
00:15:09,705 --> 00:15:13,645
The arguably the best space was given over to everybody

331
00:15:13,785 --> 00:15:15,365
by putting in a canteen.

332
00:15:16,115 --> 00:15:18,045
What, what was the thinking behind that?

333
00:15:19,555 --> 00:15:23,685
Exactly that. That was one of the Partners in,

334
00:15:23,685 --> 00:15:25,325
in, in one of our meetings just threw

335
00:15:25,325 --> 00:15:27,085
that there as an option.

336
00:15:27,185 --> 00:15:30,645
So we had initially thought, top floor with the balcony.

337
00:15:30,835 --> 00:15:33,565
Well, that's where our client meeting rooms should be.

338
00:15:33,665 --> 00:15:35,685
And that's where, you know, potentially some

339
00:15:35,685 --> 00:15:37,965
of the Executive offices might be.

340
00:15:38,145 --> 00:15:41,605
Or do we, do we let one of our teams take that space?

341
00:15:41,625 --> 00:15:43,485
And if we do, let one of the teams take that space,

342
00:15:43,485 --> 00:15:44,645
which teams it gonna be?

343
00:15:44,645 --> 00:15:46,605
Because they're all, they all think they're the best.

344
00:15:47,005 --> 00:15:48,805
So, so how, how, how are we gonna manage that?

345
00:15:48,825 --> 00:15:51,445
And then someone just said, actually,

346
00:15:52,025 --> 00:15:54,445
why don't we put our canteen up there if we want people

347
00:15:55,225 --> 00:15:58,445
to come into the office, if we want random conversations

348
00:15:58,745 --> 00:16:02,725
to happen, let's give the best space to our people.

349
00:16:02,975 --> 00:16:06,365
Let's the best space is the most utilised.

350
00:16:07,305 --> 00:16:09,845
And, and what we found is

351
00:16:12,585 --> 00:16:16,045
it has worked in terms of bringing people together,

352
00:16:16,045 --> 00:16:18,005
putting them on tables so that, you know, when they,

353
00:16:18,005 --> 00:16:20,125
when they go for lunch, I'll sometimes sit with you

354
00:16:20,185 --> 00:16:21,405
and sometimes sit with other people.

355
00:16:21,405 --> 00:16:22,605
Sometimes I'll sit with my team.

356
00:16:22,605 --> 00:16:24,565
It does spark off random conversations,

357
00:16:24,705 --> 00:16:27,965
but perhaps more importantly, it produced a sort of

358
00:16:28,675 --> 00:16:33,285
safe space for people to get time away from the desk to go

359
00:16:33,285 --> 00:16:34,805
and have informal

360
00:16:35,545 --> 00:16:38,965
or sometimes formal conversations over a cup of coffee.

361
00:16:39,645 --> 00:16:43,165
'Cause in our previous office, if you wanted to have a chat

362
00:16:43,165 --> 00:16:44,525
with someone, maybe on their appraisal,

363
00:16:45,505 --> 00:16:47,165
you might booked a meeting room

364
00:16:47,425 --> 00:16:49,965
and all of a sudden that's taken on a level of formality

365
00:16:50,105 --> 00:16:54,845
that's not perhaps conducive to transparency and open.

366
00:16:54,915 --> 00:16:56,525
Whereas if you're saying, oh,

367
00:16:56,525 --> 00:16:57,605
we haven't had a catch up for a while.

368
00:16:57,605 --> 00:17:00,205
Let me, let me buy you, let me buy you a coffee.

369
00:17:00,345 --> 00:17:01,405
And you go and you sit there

370
00:17:01,405 --> 00:17:03,325
and you've got lovely views of the, the,

371
00:17:03,465 --> 00:17:05,125
the Tyne Valley and St.

372
00:17:05,125 --> 00:17:06,965
James Park and, and everything like that.

373
00:17:07,905 --> 00:17:11,285
It just created the right atmosphere for people

374
00:17:11,825 --> 00:17:14,125
to perhaps talk a bit more.

375
00:17:14,625 --> 00:17:17,365
So many companies set up these networks,

376
00:17:17,775 --> 00:17:18,885
yours is called Thrive,

377
00:17:19,305 --> 00:17:21,165
and they've always got that kind of branding.

378
00:17:21,165 --> 00:17:22,885
This is, you know, fits our corporate brand

379
00:17:22,885 --> 00:17:24,245
and it says something really positive.

380
00:17:24,545 --> 00:17:28,205
But in practical terms, does everybody really have a say

381
00:17:28,745 --> 00:17:32,405
and those messages, how are they pushed up the chain

382
00:17:32,705 --> 00:17:34,645
to make a change in policy? Say, so

383
00:17:34,645 --> 00:17:36,245
We split it up into different pillars,

384
00:17:36,245 --> 00:17:38,965
which each have a different focus so that there's a bit

385
00:17:38,965 --> 00:17:41,165
of direction as to what you're doing.

386
00:17:41,305 --> 00:17:43,605
So there's Internal and ex engagement,

387
00:17:43,925 --> 00:17:45,885
External Engagement, a few different ones.

388
00:17:45,885 --> 00:17:48,165
And the one that I do is Projects and Accountability.

389
00:17:48,225 --> 00:17:51,485
And that is specifically around identifying

390
00:17:52,385 --> 00:17:54,605
things we can do in a firm differently.

391
00:17:54,745 --> 00:17:58,645
So what happens is we, um, sort of take soundings on

392
00:17:58,795 --> 00:18:02,085
what people are bothered about, um, what we as the sort

393
00:18:02,085 --> 00:18:03,925
of panel members are aware of,

394
00:18:04,385 --> 00:18:06,685
and then identify priorities as to

395
00:18:06,685 --> 00:18:08,925
what we think should be progressed

396
00:18:09,265 --> 00:18:12,285
and then make recommendations as to what should happen.

397
00:18:12,985 --> 00:18:15,645
And um, so there's been some sort of recent changes

398
00:18:15,645 --> 00:18:18,645
around things, for example, to do with, um, bonuses

399
00:18:18,825 --> 00:18:21,405
and, um, the credit that you can get

400
00:18:21,425 --> 00:18:22,525
for being involved in sort

401
00:18:22,525 --> 00:18:25,005
of diversity initiatives, things like that.

402
00:18:25,005 --> 00:18:28,645
Because one issue that was identified is that it's often,

403
00:18:28,785 --> 00:18:31,645
um, sort of women who are doing the non-chargeable work,

404
00:18:31,645 --> 00:18:33,445
that's really important things

405
00:18:33,445 --> 00:18:35,565
around CSR responsible business

406
00:18:35,905 --> 00:18:37,285
and making sure that there is,

407
00:18:37,555 --> 00:18:39,525
it's properly baked into our systems,

408
00:18:39,755 --> 00:18:42,485
that you get some credit and recognition for that.

409
00:18:42,955 --> 00:18:44,285
Explain a little bit more there.

410
00:18:44,525 --> 00:18:46,365
So you've got your billable time. Yes.

411
00:18:46,505 --> 00:18:49,565
And then this is your stuff that you're doing on top of that

412
00:18:49,665 --> 00:18:51,965
for the good of yourself or for the good of the company?

413
00:18:52,275 --> 00:18:55,045
Well, both - for the community, for your own.

414
00:18:55,045 --> 00:18:58,645
If it's something that's important as a priority to you, um,

415
00:18:58,745 --> 00:19:00,285
the wider firm, the wider community,

416
00:19:00,505 --> 00:19:02,005
and that stuff's really important.

417
00:19:02,385 --> 00:19:05,565
And as a big business, a big employer in the area, we need

418
00:19:05,565 --> 00:19:06,605
to be doing things like that.

419
00:19:07,225 --> 00:19:09,245
Um, and it's just making sure

420
00:19:09,245 --> 00:19:11,805
that there is some baked in recognition. So

421
00:19:11,805 --> 00:19:12,805
What would you get? Are you talking

422
00:19:12,805 --> 00:19:14,565
about remuneration or...

423
00:19:14,825 --> 00:19:17,365
It, it's that, um, certain activities will sort of count

424
00:19:17,385 --> 00:19:19,045
to, to an extent count towards your

425
00:19:19,155 --> 00:19:21,645
targets so that on a par. So it's

426
00:19:21,645 --> 00:19:23,445
very nuanced that, 'cause it's mainly the women

427
00:19:23,445 --> 00:19:25,805
who are going for those extra jobs.

428
00:19:26,745 --> 00:19:29,005
So it, it, it has been, um,

429
00:19:29,665 --> 00:19:31,805
and I think the point you make Francesca is really important

430
00:19:31,805 --> 00:19:35,885
because like a lot of businesses, we've got our values

431
00:19:36,585 --> 00:19:39,805
and our values are, you know, to support people,

432
00:19:39,825 --> 00:19:42,805
to support our communities to be the, the best that we can,

433
00:19:43,555 --> 00:19:47,885
that does run alongside our, our or ordinary client work.

434
00:19:48,545 --> 00:19:50,565
But it's a really important part of our culture

435
00:19:51,065 --> 00:19:52,405
to have those shared values.

436
00:19:53,065 --> 00:19:57,165
So how do we recognise that people are spending time on

437
00:19:57,315 --> 00:19:59,085
that work, which is equally important

438
00:19:59,085 --> 00:20:02,365
to our business even though it doesn't in in the immediate

439
00:20:03,275 --> 00:20:06,365
term, produce any financial reward.

440
00:20:06,945 --> 00:20:10,645
And I think one of the things I always think about, so I've,

441
00:20:10,645 --> 00:20:11,725
I've never worked part-time,

442
00:20:12,305 --> 00:20:14,245
but when I look at any part-time work

443
00:20:14,265 --> 00:20:15,365
as whether they're meet male

444
00:20:15,385 --> 00:20:17,525
or female, I always look at think, well actually

445
00:20:18,275 --> 00:20:22,405
it's never quite as simple as taking somebody's target for,

446
00:20:22,585 --> 00:20:25,605
for, for what should be five days or full-time employment

447
00:20:25,865 --> 00:20:29,365
and then reducing it by a fifth or two fifths.

448
00:20:29,755 --> 00:20:32,685
Because yes, there's the contribution to all of our

449
00:20:33,295 --> 00:20:37,045
other business things such as networks

450
00:20:37,045 --> 00:20:38,525
and client business development,

451
00:20:39,345 --> 00:20:43,125
but we are also, um, in a profession where we have

452
00:20:43,125 --> 00:20:46,525
to continually learn and develop.

453
00:20:47,385 --> 00:20:50,005
And so if you are only working three days a week,

454
00:20:50,785 --> 00:20:52,285
you are coming in, you've still got

455
00:20:52,285 --> 00:20:54,405
to do your client work in those three days a week.

456
00:20:54,465 --> 00:20:58,445
But also we're expecting you to contribute to our networks

457
00:20:58,905 --> 00:21:00,245
and to display our values.

458
00:21:00,765 --> 00:21:03,045
I, and by the way as well, you've also got to do all

459
00:21:03,045 --> 00:21:05,525
of your professional development in those days as well.

460
00:21:05,645 --> 00:21:09,205
And I think that's really hard balance to get right.

461
00:21:09,865 --> 00:21:13,445
So those are the kind of issues that we would look to

462
00:21:14,265 --> 00:21:17,205
say Thrive in the first instance, to explore

463
00:21:17,205 --> 00:21:20,285
and talk about how do we, how do we get that balance right?

464
00:21:21,345 --> 00:21:23,285
And then they've got the direct line into the Board.

465
00:21:24,345 --> 00:21:26,845
The Board can then kind of give a steer on

466
00:21:26,845 --> 00:21:27,965
what the business expects

467
00:21:27,965 --> 00:21:30,405
and channel that back through to our teams. So

468
00:21:30,955 --> 00:21:33,605
What in practical terms could you do then to make

469
00:21:33,605 --> 00:21:35,725
that fairer for part-time workers?

470
00:21:35,725 --> 00:21:38,645
Because that, that is not just a legal profession, that is,

471
00:21:38,665 --> 00:21:40,205
I'm, I'm thinking about the health sector.

472
00:21:40,205 --> 00:21:43,445
That is a major, major thing in the health sector.

473
00:21:43,585 --> 00:21:46,045
The first thing you would do is you say, well, we need

474
00:21:46,745 --> 00:21:51,045
to change the, the equation, the factor

475
00:21:51,045 --> 00:21:53,085
that we apply when setting your targets.

476
00:21:53,085 --> 00:21:54,165
Because the fact

477
00:21:54,165 --> 00:21:58,605
that you are working 0.6 full-time employment, it's not

478
00:21:58,665 --> 00:22:00,525
so simple as taking an annual target

479
00:22:00,585 --> 00:22:02,245
and multiplying it by 0.6

480
00:22:02,795 --> 00:22:05,725
because you've still got all of the other stuff to do in,

481
00:22:05,725 --> 00:22:07,125
in those three days, whereas other

482
00:22:07,125 --> 00:22:08,205
people have got five days.

483
00:22:08,345 --> 00:22:09,805
So actually you might need

484
00:22:09,805 --> 00:22:13,005
to reduce the financial target a little bit more.

485
00:22:13,465 --> 00:22:16,965
Or if it was, uh, the health sector, you are going to have

486
00:22:16,965 --> 00:22:20,645
to remove a bit more of the time that people are expected

487
00:22:20,865 --> 00:22:24,965
to spend with their patients in order to dedicate to

488
00:22:26,315 --> 00:22:27,845
Yeah, and, and and the and

489
00:22:27,845 --> 00:22:29,685
and the, the, the praofessional development

490
00:22:29,785 --> 00:22:32,085
and all that kind of thing. So, so

491
00:22:32,165 --> 00:22:34,245
I think that since Covid in particular

492
00:22:34,275 --> 00:22:38,165
that there's been a real sort of relaxation

493
00:22:38,425 --> 00:22:40,245
of people's attitudes

494
00:22:40,245 --> 00:22:41,965
because they've had the data to back up

495
00:22:41,965 --> 00:22:45,005
that you can actually just take a little bit of a step back.

496
00:22:45,065 --> 00:22:47,125
You don't need to micromanage people, you don't need

497
00:22:47,125 --> 00:22:49,205
to worry about where they are at seven minutes past nine

498
00:22:49,555 --> 00:22:52,325
because I mean, it's actually possibly easier

499
00:22:52,325 --> 00:22:53,885
for a law firm than a lot of other businesses

500
00:22:53,885 --> 00:22:57,685
because the outputs are so much easier to measure.

501
00:22:57,875 --> 00:22:59,365
It's very obvious what you are,

502
00:22:59,705 --> 00:23:00,805
you clock your time delivering

503
00:23:00,805 --> 00:23:03,605
because you, you fill in time sheets every day.

504
00:23:04,265 --> 00:23:07,725
And um, I've certainly heard lots of sort of,

505
00:23:07,835 --> 00:23:09,445
well there's open conversations.

506
00:23:09,505 --> 00:23:11,805
If there's a sort of big chunk of time that's needed,

507
00:23:12,215 --> 00:23:14,445
maybe I suppose more than more than half a day,

508
00:23:14,705 --> 00:23:18,045
but around the edges sort of 20 minutes to an hour here

509
00:23:18,045 --> 00:23:21,485
or there, um, I wouldn't have a conversation about it,

510
00:23:21,645 --> 00:23:23,125
I would just do it.

511
00:23:23,885 --> 00:23:26,445
I wanted to ask about that, that transatlantic thing,

512
00:23:26,445 --> 00:23:29,805
because you are both among like a thousand

513
00:23:30,475 --> 00:23:34,805
lawyers across 27 sites in the UK

514
00:23:34,825 --> 00:23:38,005
and the US. You are both based here in the North -East.

515
00:23:38,315 --> 00:23:42,685
Dare I go into the issue of salaries, um, is that,

516
00:23:42,715 --> 00:23:43,965
does it differ where,

517
00:23:44,135 --> 00:23:45,805
where you working, how much you get paid?

518
00:23:46,435 --> 00:23:47,685
Yeah, it, it, it does.

519
00:23:48,345 --> 00:23:50,445
So as a business we always

520
00:23:51,195 --> 00:23:54,125
look at the areas in in which our offices are in, in,

521
00:23:54,125 --> 00:23:57,885
in the UK and we look at what we perceive

522
00:23:57,885 --> 00:24:00,405
to be comparable firms to ourselves pay,

523
00:24:00,465 --> 00:24:04,645
and we make, we make sure that we're in line with that

524
00:24:04,825 --> 00:24:07,205
or hopefully exceeding that.

525
00:24:07,345 --> 00:24:11,925
But the profession over the last few years,

526
00:24:12,545 --> 00:24:17,005
um, is is part of a salary war driven

527
00:24:17,625 --> 00:24:19,205
mainly by what's happening in the city.

528
00:24:20,385 --> 00:24:24,285
Um, so big US firms are making a real play

529
00:24:24,285 --> 00:24:25,605
for London at the moment

530
00:24:26,065 --> 00:24:28,645
that's driving up the salaries in London.

531
00:24:28,985 --> 00:24:31,925
The UK firms that have always been established in the city

532
00:24:32,545 --> 00:24:35,605
are therefore having to keep pace, which means that the tier

533
00:24:35,655 --> 00:24:38,205
below them have to try and keep pace.

534
00:24:38,825 --> 00:24:42,565
And that does have a, a ripple effect through the regions.

535
00:24:43,345 --> 00:24:47,765
And it's exacerbated again by what we started to see

536
00:24:47,765 --> 00:24:50,965
during Covid, which is where all

537
00:24:50,965 --> 00:24:52,845
of a sudden it became normal

538
00:24:53,625 --> 00:24:56,045
to attend client meetings on Teams.

539
00:24:58,175 --> 00:25:00,045
Prior to Covid, you didn't even have teams.

540
00:25:00,325 --> 00:25:02,205
I don't even think I ever did a video call.

541
00:25:02,265 --> 00:25:04,525
We used to do conference calls. You had Skype. Yeah.

542
00:25:04,525 --> 00:25:06,925
And you had the spider phones and the meeting rooms

543
00:25:06,945 --> 00:25:08,445
and you would do conference calls like that.

544
00:25:08,505 --> 00:25:12,685
But if I was going to to, you know, if I was a part

545
00:25:12,685 --> 00:25:13,765
of a meeting for an hour and a half,

546
00:25:13,865 --> 00:25:17,685
I'd physically get on the train and I'd go down

547
00:25:17,745 --> 00:25:19,965
and I'd sit in a meeting room for an hour and a half.

548
00:25:20,995 --> 00:25:23,005
That just disappeared overnight.

549
00:25:23,625 --> 00:25:26,205
So law firms to some degree

550
00:25:26,905 --> 00:25:30,685
became a little bit agnostic towards location

551
00:25:30,685 --> 00:25:31,685
of their employees.

552
00:25:32,425 --> 00:25:36,165
And we found that there were people, you know,

553
00:25:36,285 --> 00:25:38,725
being offered jobs from London firms,

554
00:25:39,105 --> 00:25:43,125
but being allowed to be based still in the North-East.

555
00:25:43,545 --> 00:25:45,445
So still living at home, getting a London salary,

556
00:25:45,445 --> 00:25:46,565
getting a London salary

557
00:25:46,745 --> 00:25:49,285
and being asked, just come down twice a month.

558
00:25:49,345 --> 00:25:50,645
So once a fortnight, get on the train,

559
00:25:50,645 --> 00:25:51,925
come down and see your team.

560
00:25:52,745 --> 00:25:53,925
And that is a challenge

561
00:25:54,075 --> 00:25:56,765
because there is a big differential between

562
00:25:56,765 --> 00:25:58,805
what you would get paid in the city and the North-East.

563
00:25:58,955 --> 00:26:00,885
When you say a challenge, as in it's a challenge

564
00:26:00,885 --> 00:26:04,765
for the business to keep hold of that talent.

565
00:26:05,325 --> 00:26:06,485
Y yes, because,

566
00:26:07,425 --> 00:26:10,245
And for you as a business to keep pace with those wages

567
00:26:10,245 --> 00:26:12,245
because it'll just, well we just cascade through. I mean we

568
00:26:12,245 --> 00:26:15,565
Just see, you just can't, You can't stay competitive.

569
00:26:15,665 --> 00:26:18,605
You can't be competitive in the North-East with

570
00:26:18,915 --> 00:26:20,685
what people are being paid in the city.

571
00:26:21,145 --> 00:26:22,485
But how does that feel then?

572
00:26:22,585 --> 00:26:23,885
So you are based here

573
00:26:24,425 --> 00:26:27,005
and you know that you're doing just

574
00:26:27,025 --> 00:26:29,125
as good if not a better job,

575
00:26:29,585 --> 00:26:31,325
but getting paid less for it than somebody

576
00:26:31,325 --> 00:26:32,685
who happens to live South.

577
00:26:33,265 --> 00:26:34,365
So the, you know,

578
00:26:34,545 --> 00:26:37,845
London waiting is always gonna be the most stark of all

579
00:26:37,845 --> 00:26:38,925
of the regional waiting.

580
00:26:39,505 --> 00:26:42,325
The thing is, the obvious thing then to do is people have

581
00:26:42,325 --> 00:26:45,605
to decide what's right for them, what their priorities are.

582
00:26:46,225 --> 00:26:48,725
And for example, for some people remote working from,

583
00:26:49,065 --> 00:26:51,045
for a London firm or, um, in-house

584
00:26:51,105 --> 00:26:53,885
for London from the North-East is brilliant

585
00:26:53,885 --> 00:26:55,485
because they don't want to come into the office anyway

586
00:26:56,545 --> 00:26:58,805
and that gives them that freedom and that flexibility.

587
00:26:58,955 --> 00:27:01,565
Whereas for me, I like coming into the office,

588
00:27:01,845 --> 00:27:03,845
I like seeing people, being around people.

589
00:27:04,585 --> 00:27:08,365
So yes, I could get paid more working from my desk in Gates-

590
00:27:08,365 --> 00:27:11,085
head for a London firm or, or in-house somewhere,

591
00:27:11,425 --> 00:27:14,445
but I wouldn't enjoy my working environment as much.

592
00:27:14,985 --> 00:27:17,765
So it's just another one of the factors that people have

593
00:27:17,765 --> 00:27:20,205
to put into the mix when they're deciding

594
00:27:20,715 --> 00:27:22,125
what's right for them. Yeah,

595
00:27:22,125 --> 00:27:23,125
Yeah. You mentioned

596
00:27:23,125 --> 00:27:24,245
geographical areas.

597
00:27:24,345 --> 00:27:27,725
How many tiers are there then within Womble Bond Dickinson?

598
00:27:29,035 --> 00:27:31,965
Well, each, you know, the, the Leeds market

599
00:27:32,785 --> 00:27:35,405
for legal services is quite competitive,

600
00:27:35,405 --> 00:27:36,405
quite well established.

601
00:27:36,545 --> 00:27:40,565
So, you know, Leeds salaries will differ slightly

602
00:27:41,075 --> 00:27:43,845
from the North-East. Bristol.

603
00:27:44,655 --> 00:27:46,525
Again, that's a big legal centre.

604
00:27:46,835 --> 00:27:51,205
It's not too far from London, so there's naturally, um,

605
00:27:51,965 --> 00:27:53,365
a bit of a differential there between

606
00:27:54,305 --> 00:27:55,445
the, the, the North-East.

607
00:27:56,665 --> 00:28:00,045
So they're all fractionally different.

608
00:28:00,345 --> 00:28:02,565
It, it's this, I, it's, I don't think any

609
00:28:02,565 --> 00:28:04,925
of them are exactly the same at, at all levels.

610
00:28:05,025 --> 00:28:07,285
And then I suppose when it comes to salaries, you have

611
00:28:07,285 --> 00:28:10,085
to look at the individual, what their skill set is,

612
00:28:10,085 --> 00:28:11,165
what their experience is.

613
00:28:11,325 --> 00:28:13,525
'cause that's obviously taken into account when setting

614
00:28:14,025 --> 00:28:15,645
salary levels as well. But

615
00:28:15,725 --> 00:28:17,805
Generally it's about who you're competing with

616
00:28:18,365 --> 00:28:19,405
geographically in that area.

617
00:28:19,625 --> 00:28:20,725
And also cost of living?

618
00:28:21,065 --> 00:28:22,065
Exactly.

619
00:28:22,435 --> 00:28:25,405
Cost of living's the most important. But

620
00:28:25,465 --> 00:28:28,565
You don't wanna ideally be from a place

621
00:28:28,565 --> 00:28:29,805
that's known as cheap labor.

622
00:28:30,185 --> 00:28:32,645
Do you, you wanna, it should be about quality.

623
00:28:33,585 --> 00:28:35,565
But shouldn't you be rewarded for that quality.

624
00:28:35,745 --> 00:28:38,965
You shouldn't value yourself on what you are paid either

625
00:28:39,505 --> 00:28:42,565
and your con contribution. I think that's

626
00:28:42,565 --> 00:28:43,885
very easy for you to say if you're in

627
00:28:43,885 --> 00:28:45,045
like a managerial role.

628
00:28:46,105 --> 00:28:48,765
But if you are kind of like lower entrance level

629
00:28:48,765 --> 00:28:51,285
and all the rest of it and you're being told, you know,

630
00:28:51,335 --> 00:28:53,645
don't, don't be valued on how much you're paid.

631
00:28:56,115 --> 00:28:57,805
Yeah, yeah. I take your point.

632
00:28:57,865 --> 00:29:02,205
But if you are, if you are in any industry

633
00:29:02,545 --> 00:29:05,605
and you look at what you are getting paid at a certain level

634
00:29:05,665 --> 00:29:08,485
in the North-East and what somebody's getting in Manchester

635
00:29:09,305 --> 00:29:11,525
or London, there's gonna be a differential.

636
00:29:11,525 --> 00:29:13,085
And that's for the reasons you said

637
00:29:13,085 --> 00:29:15,125
because of the cost of living in those areas.

638
00:29:16,065 --> 00:29:18,125
So yes, you might say, well on, on pounds

639
00:29:18,145 --> 00:29:20,525
and pence, I'm only getting this much a month

640
00:29:20,785 --> 00:29:22,645
and this person does exactly the same job as me

641
00:29:22,645 --> 00:29:25,005
and gets paid this much, this month.

642
00:29:25,005 --> 00:29:27,325
But then look at where you are living, look at your access

643
00:29:27,325 --> 00:29:28,805
to your facilities, look at the quality

644
00:29:28,905 --> 00:29:31,725
of the schools and public services.

645
00:29:32,145 --> 00:29:34,685
One of the reasons I chose law was

646
00:29:34,685 --> 00:29:36,845
that it's something you can have a good career

647
00:29:36,985 --> 00:29:38,205
in anywhere in the country.

648
00:29:39,225 --> 00:29:42,010
And there is something to be said for still being able

649
00:29:42,010 --> 00:29:44,445
to sort of go back, go back to where you came from, work in,

650
00:29:44,445 --> 00:29:47,525
in Newcastle, and get the quality of work

651
00:29:47,905 --> 00:29:50,765
and um, you know, sort of, you know,

652
00:29:50,785 --> 00:29:52,165
big ticket, interesting things.

653
00:29:52,345 --> 00:29:54,125
You don't have to go to London to do that.

654
00:29:54,625 --> 00:29:58,885
So there is a value to that as well in terms of getting

655
00:29:58,945 --> 00:30:00,565
to do the sort of work that you want

656
00:30:00,625 --> 00:30:04,405
and not having to compromise on other aspects of your life,

657
00:30:04,785 --> 00:30:06,805
be it lifestyle, be it your family, all of

658
00:30:06,805 --> 00:30:08,125
that sort of thing in order to do that.

659
00:30:08,635 --> 00:30:09,725
What about CEOs

660
00:30:09,725 --> 00:30:13,125
and Founders who are now in that position of mandating,

661
00:30:13,725 --> 00:30:17,245
I want you in, I've spent a fortune on this office.

662
00:30:18,085 --> 00:30:20,125
I think it is affecting our performance

663
00:30:20,145 --> 00:30:21,565
and I also want to really see

664
00:30:21,565 --> 00:30:22,685
what you're doing with your days.

665
00:30:23,085 --> 00:30:24,485
I want you in three or four days a week.

666
00:30:24,555 --> 00:30:25,965
What do you think? What's your opinion?

667
00:30:26,745 --> 00:30:31,045
So I think it's fair enough to have a minimum number

668
00:30:31,045 --> 00:30:32,965
of days so that there is a sort

669
00:30:32,965 --> 00:30:35,805
of core time when colleagues are sort

670
00:30:35,805 --> 00:30:38,725
of seeing each other in person, sort

671
00:30:38,725 --> 00:30:40,605
of maintaining those bonds, that sort of thing.

672
00:30:40,945 --> 00:30:43,245
And I don't know exactly where the, the cutoff is,

673
00:30:43,505 --> 00:30:45,565
but as a sort of ethos and, and,

674
00:30:45,565 --> 00:30:50,045
and philosophy, if you are, I think that it is trying to,

675
00:30:50,145 --> 00:30:51,965
um, put the genie back in the bottle.

676
00:30:52,305 --> 00:30:53,445
Things have changed.

677
00:30:54,345 --> 00:30:56,325
If you push that too far

678
00:30:56,625 --> 00:31:00,085
and are too regimented with it, you are in competition

679
00:31:00,115 --> 00:31:03,125
with other employers who are not doing that.

680
00:31:03,865 --> 00:31:07,165
And I think that the starting point is that you treat people

681
00:31:07,345 --> 00:31:09,805
as grownups who are capable of managing their own time.

682
00:31:10,345 --> 00:31:14,085
And if there is a specific performance issue with somebody,

683
00:31:14,785 --> 00:31:16,005
um, you address that.

684
00:31:16,425 --> 00:31:17,805
You know, if you want to see people

685
00:31:18,045 --> 00:31:19,325
'cause you want to make sure they're working.

686
00:31:19,665 --> 00:31:21,405
If you don't trust that your staff are working,

687
00:31:21,465 --> 00:31:24,045
if you're not sort of staring at them,

688
00:31:24,275 --> 00:31:25,965
then you've got a bigger problem.

689
00:31:26,705 --> 00:31:29,005
Um, so I'm not a fan of that.

690
00:31:29,665 --> 00:31:32,685
And I do think that personal sort of connections

691
00:31:32,685 --> 00:31:34,325
and spending time with people makes a difference.

692
00:31:34,625 --> 00:31:36,565
But I also think there is this sort

693
00:31:36,565 --> 00:31:37,885
of general idea out there

694
00:31:37,885 --> 00:31:40,325
that working remotely can affect performance,

695
00:31:40,325 --> 00:31:42,605
but I've never really seen the evidence to back that up.

696
00:31:42,685 --> 00:31:44,165
I think it's just a thing people say,

697
00:31:45,145 --> 00:31:46,965
so I think they need to calm down.

698
00:31:47,645 --> 00:31:50,445
I I think I, I agree with everything you say there,

699
00:31:50,865 --> 00:31:54,565
and my worry is if people are too remote,

700
00:31:54,625 --> 00:31:56,325
if they're not coming into the office enough,

701
00:31:58,025 --> 00:32:01,235
are they a part of our culture?

702
00:32:01,945 --> 00:32:03,715
Because if you think about culture

703
00:32:04,695 --> 00:32:06,275
and what it is, it's shared values.

704
00:32:06,385 --> 00:32:08,435
It's the way that people interact with each other.

705
00:32:08,435 --> 00:32:10,395
They respect the show to each other.

706
00:32:12,015 --> 00:32:14,315
Yes, you can do all that remotely,

707
00:32:14,695 --> 00:32:18,035
but it's something that happens more organically,

708
00:32:18,105 --> 00:32:20,555
more naturally when they're all together.

709
00:32:21,575 --> 00:32:24,195
And so if, if people aren't coming into the office at all,

710
00:32:24,375 --> 00:32:27,155
my worry is that they're separating

711
00:32:27,795 --> 00:32:31,835
a little bit from the business, perhaps are

712
00:32:33,875 --> 00:32:35,595
arguably, are they still part of the culture?

713
00:32:35,875 --> 00:32:37,595
IIII hope so.

714
00:32:39,105 --> 00:32:42,005
But then forcing people in five days a week actually speaks

715
00:32:42,005 --> 00:32:43,365
against the the culture.

716
00:32:43,755 --> 00:32:46,285
Because if you are, if you're wanting a, something

717
00:32:46,285 --> 00:32:47,685
that's underpinned by trust

718
00:32:47,905 --> 00:32:51,165
and transparency, then you should allow people

719
00:32:51,165 --> 00:32:52,325
to be grown up about it

720
00:32:52,325 --> 00:32:54,245
and to do their job from home if that's

721
00:32:54,245 --> 00:32:55,965
what they prefer on a set number of days.

722
00:32:56,925 --> 00:32:59,965
I also think if that, if you're too regimented about it,

723
00:32:59,965 --> 00:33:01,685
you've got to think about the impact

724
00:33:02,305 --> 00:33:05,645
on underrepresented groups in the workforce.

725
00:33:06,345 --> 00:33:07,805
The obvious point is

726
00:33:07,805 --> 00:33:10,365
that more women than men are the primary carers

727
00:33:10,365 --> 00:33:14,325
of their children or carers more generally and are

728
00:33:14,325 --> 00:33:17,005
therefore more likely in more circumstances

729
00:33:17,345 --> 00:33:19,805
to need a little bit more flexibility

730
00:33:20,265 --> 00:33:22,485
around when they can and can't work.

731
00:33:22,625 --> 00:33:23,805
So you can have sort

732
00:33:23,805 --> 00:33:25,725
of a well-meaning policy applying to everyone.

733
00:33:25,725 --> 00:33:28,805
It's having a disproportionate impact on a particular group

734
00:33:29,035 --> 00:33:31,405
that can then have an impact on you achieving other

735
00:33:31,575 --> 00:33:35,445
objectives as a business about retaining the best people

736
00:33:35,825 --> 00:33:38,045
for the sake, if you were too regimented with it

737
00:33:38,045 --> 00:33:39,805
for the sake of, of one or two days a week.

738
00:33:40,235 --> 00:33:41,845
That just doesn't make sense to me.

739
00:33:42,335 --> 00:33:46,365
Let's end on positive work culture. What's the magic dust?

740
00:33:48,725 --> 00:33:51,485
I think it should be a friendly environment

741
00:33:51,485 --> 00:33:52,845
where people are approachable

742
00:33:53,425 --> 00:33:56,845
and feel that they can feel sort of safe to raise things.

743
00:33:57,525 --> 00:33:59,885
I also don't think it should be too serious an

744
00:33:59,885 --> 00:34:01,005
environment all the time.

745
00:34:01,325 --> 00:34:05,285
I think a good dose of silliness is a good thing

746
00:34:05,905 --> 00:34:07,725
in the, uh, in the workplace.

747
00:34:08,285 --> 00:34:12,685
I wouldn't argue with that. Make sure that you are seen

748
00:34:13,065 --> 00:34:17,405
as being reliable as a manager, generous with your time

749
00:34:18,145 --> 00:34:20,845
and having those clear conversations

750
00:34:20,915 --> 00:34:22,685
with people about themselves

751
00:34:22,705 --> 00:34:24,685
and their own career aspirations.

752
00:34:25,105 --> 00:34:26,405
And people will thank you for it.

753
00:34:26,705 --> 00:34:30,965
And even if sometimes those conversations might feel

754
00:34:31,555 --> 00:34:35,485
difficult because somebody isn't quite hitting the

755
00:34:35,645 --> 00:34:39,765
standards, we're lucky in,

756
00:34:39,785 --> 00:34:44,455
in our profession that most people receive that kind

757
00:34:44,455 --> 00:34:46,335
of feedback the right way.

758
00:34:46,795 --> 00:34:48,615
We specifically look for that actually when we,

759
00:34:48,615 --> 00:34:50,455
when we recruit people, that they're able to take

760
00:34:51,095 --> 00:34:53,655
constructive feedback and we'll often thank you for it.

761
00:34:54,775 --> 00:34:56,935
Ian Atkinson and Francesca Hodgson

762
00:34:56,935 --> 00:34:59,935
of Womble Bond Dickinson, that was great

763
00:34:59,955 --> 00:35:04,375
to hear the legal perspective on flexible working salaries

764
00:35:04,475 --> 00:35:05,775
and social mobility.

765
00:35:06,165 --> 00:35:07,975
That point about how

766
00:35:07,975 --> 00:35:11,735
to engineer equality in the workplace was fascinating.

767
00:35:12,255 --> 00:35:13,295
Changing the point system

768
00:35:13,315 --> 00:35:15,735
to benefit applicants from poorer backgrounds.

769
00:35:16,285 --> 00:35:19,455
That means the whole legal profession could become much more

770
00:35:19,455 --> 00:35:21,135
representative of its clients.

771
00:35:21,995 --> 00:35:26,975
It could mean a wholesale work culture and social change.

772
00:35:26,975 --> 00:35:29,455
It sounds grandiose, but it's something to think about.

773
00:35:30,875 --> 00:35:33,695
So however, and wherever you are listening

774
00:35:33,695 --> 00:35:36,015
or watching Both Sides of the Desk, thank you.

775
00:35:36,405 --> 00:35:37,965
This is all about sharing ideas

776
00:35:38,065 --> 00:35:40,965
to create a more positive work culture for everyone.

777
00:35:41,265 --> 00:35:42,725
So please subscribe to the podcast

778
00:35:42,985 --> 00:35:44,765
and share it with your friends and colleagues.

779
00:35:45,475 --> 00:35:48,725
Data shows that positive work culture boosts productivity,

780
00:35:49,355 --> 00:35:52,085
reduces staff turnover and makes people happier.

781
00:35:52,665 --> 00:35:54,685
What's not to love? Well, we'd love you

782
00:35:54,745 --> 00:35:56,365
to join the conversation too.

783
00:35:56,635 --> 00:35:59,445
Drop us a message on the socials for Newcastle Helix,

784
00:35:59,445 --> 00:36:02,525
whether that's LinkedIn, X, Facebook, Instagram,

785
00:36:02,745 --> 00:36:03,965
or the YouTube channel.

786
00:36:04,585 --> 00:36:06,605
We are all about collaboration here.

787
00:36:06,745 --> 00:36:09,565
So on that note, this video podcast was filmed with the help

788
00:36:09,565 --> 00:36:12,285
of the incredible team at the Lumen Building on the

789
00:36:12,285 --> 00:36:14,005
Newcastle Helix site.

790
00:36:14,345 --> 00:36:17,685
It was filmed and directed by Chris Taylor, filmed

791
00:36:17,685 --> 00:36:20,085
and edited by Jordan McDonald, mixed

792
00:36:20,085 --> 00:36:23,085
and mastered by Andy at Blast Studios and produced

793
00:36:23,105 --> 00:36:25,365
and presented by me, Charlie Charlton.

794
00:36:25,705 --> 00:36:28,965
The concept emerged in collaboration with Di Gates

795
00:36:29,065 --> 00:36:30,125
of Connection Heroes.

796
00:36:30,355 --> 00:36:33,165
This is a development program all about the value

797
00:36:33,265 --> 00:36:35,365
of human connection at work.

798
00:36:35,785 --> 00:36:38,565
So coming up in the next episode of Both Sides of the Desk

799
00:36:38,825 --> 00:36:40,405
To take something seriously,

800
00:36:40,905 --> 00:36:42,205
you should be playing with it.

801
00:36:42,315 --> 00:36:46,365
What he's saying is the robot is okay. I knew it. I knew it!

802
00:36:47,315 --> 00:36:49,685
From the happy team here at Newcastle Helix.

803
00:36:50,025 --> 00:36:51,125
Thanks for listening.