Both Sides of the Desk - Episode 2: Leighton

Both Sides of the Desk. One boss. One employee. Talk work culture.

Host Charlie Charlton is caught between Leighton’s CEO James Bunting, and Senior Developer Tom Shanan. These software development experts work with businesses to build and implement technology that delivers real change. 

At Leighton, nurturing and promoting a positive work culture has been tricky, as 40% of the team works remotely, with the rest based in Newcastle. CEO James knows all too well the balance of keeping and retaining happy and high-performing employees, especially as a consultancy where much of the team is embedded into client structures. 

Developer Tom’s actions have paved the way for cultural change at Leighton, with many shifts benefiting the whole team. His ‘cheeky’ asks have ranged from taking a sabbatical, pushing for salary increases, and even having a rented desk in the capital. 

James values feedback that sparks positive change. This prompts a wider discussion between the three about how employees can effect change, the geographic salary divide, and how consultancies can roll out consistent work culture across a remote team. 

Both Sides of the Desk is here to ask the tough questions. Leighton bravely puts forward perhaps their most contentious team member for this frank discussion, and the result makes for great listening indeed. 

Discover the real meaning of ‘shy bairns get nowt’ with Charlie, James and Tom. 

CREDITS:

In conversation: James Bunting (CEO) and Tom Shanan (Senior Developer) - Leighton

Producer/Presenter/Editor: Charlie Charlton 

Camera/Director: Chris Taylor 

Camera/Editor: Jordan McDonald 

Sound Producer: Andy Bell, Blast Studios 

Social Producer: Natalie Eminae, OCOCO 

Media Exec Producers: Newcastle Helix Partnership + John Seager 

In collaboration with Di Gates, Connection Heroes 

Filmed on location in The Lumen Building, Newcastle Helix Big thanks to the whole community of the Helix Innovation District in Newcastle-upon-Tyne, England.

See Charlie Charlton and her guests in action:

https://www.youtube.com/@newcastlehelix2403


FURTHER READING:

• Sabbaticals: Guide for people professionals:

 https://www.cipd.org/uk/knowledge/guides/sabbaticals-guide/

• Regional Tech Report: North East

https://www.uktech.news/regional-tech-report-north-east

• Digital Technology Evidence Base

https://evidencehub.northeast-ca.gov.uk/digital-technology-evidence-base

Connect with Newcastle Helix:

• Website: https://www.newcastlehelix.com/
• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/newcastle-helix/
• X: https://x.com/newcastlehelix
• Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/newcastlehelix/
• Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/newcastlehelix/
• Email: info@newcastlehelix.com

Thanks for listening to Both Sides of the Desk. Don't forget to subscribe, rate, and join the conversation!

Chapters

• 0:00 Geographic pay gaps: James lays out Leighton’s two-band salary structure. This is critical to ensuring Leighton’s North East team members aren’t at a disadvantage. Although Tom is based in London, he doesn’t necessarily agree with banded pay rates.
• 0:00 Intro: Charlie Charlton is caught between Both Sides of the Desk
• 0:40 Feedback is a gift: Senior developer Tom is ‘absolutely not a ‘yes man.’” James discusses the benefits of having frank feedback.
• 1:40 A two-way conversation: James believes listening to employees like Tom allows them to make the best decisions for everyone.
• 2:33 Tom gets headhunted: Within his first year at Leighton, Tom was headhunted for another role. He shares his clever tactics to sweeten the deal with James and why he chose to stay loyal to Leighton.
• 5:11 “Great people present challenges to leadership”: James explains his reasoning for accepting Tom’s offer.
• 7:17 Money, money, money: On the cost of recruitment vs retention, James says it’s not about money as much as it’s about making the colleagues the best version of themselves.
• 10:09 Geographic pay gaps: James lays out Leighton’s two-band salary structure. This is critical to ensuring Leighton’s North East team members aren’t at a disadvantage. Although Tom is based in London, he doesn’t necessarily agree with banded pay rates.
• 14:47 “A fun point of contention” - Tom recalls a client meeting on the other side of London that required a long commute and early start, but contractually he had travel there - Charlie points out this was only for one day!
• 16:45 Enlightened workforce vs. empowered workforce: Charlie poses a question about the changing dynamic between bosses and employees post-COVID - is Tom, and all employees in the post-COVID working world, expecting too much?
• 18:10 Leighton’s setup: A North East business with remote workers, how does Leighton ensure remote workers get the same experience of work culture? James expresses the importance of values and company get-togethers.
• 21:18 Why meetings matter: The benefit of quick-fire meetings across a consultancy model for productivity and morale.
• 24:47 Unifying a consultancy workforce: Tom cites an intrinsic disconnect between what he does and who pays him. James presents data to show Leighton's methods of engagement are working.
• 27:18 Having a home office: Tom was unable to work at home, so Leighton pays half towards his renting a desk at a local space in London. For James, it’s about supporting "where you do your best work."
• 29:36 “An easy yes”: Taking a sabbatical: Tom wanted to take six months unpaid, so he found a peer to fill his spot temporarily. Tom asked for a bonus of 5x the amount to accept his colleague's recommendation to fill his place. Delve into tricky negotiations.
• 34:14 Loyalty: Tom’s requests are often financial; how does James balance the budget? He says ‘great people will always deliver more’ - and this translates into a positive financial outcome.
• 36:07 Retention rate: Tom believes a good work culture is being clear on expectations and delivering on them. For Leighton, that's encouraging questions and challenges that make the business better for everyone.

Transcript

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Hi, welcome to Both Sides of the Desk.

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I'm Charlie Charlton,

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and each week we have one boss, one employee

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to talk work culture.

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Why? Well, as a journalist, I host a lot

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of business conferences, and it is the one

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subject that always comes up.

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How do we create and keep happy high performing teams?

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So to give the honest, sometimes awkward answers to that,

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we have Leighton, a leading software development agency based

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here at Newcastle Helix.

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On one side of the desk we have Leighton, CEO, James Bunting,

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and on the other side of the desk we have Senior Developer

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with Leighton, Tom Shanan.

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Now, my idea of having this type of discussion, um, was

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frankly poo-pooed by a lot of people

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because they said that a CEO is only going

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to put up a 'yes-man' to have this discussion.

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Um, but you described Tom

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as pretty much the opposite of that.

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Not quite a no man...but

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You said that he, "he gives feedback freely and unprompted".

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He's not, he's not shy to share his thoughts, uh,

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whether they're good or, uh, or challenging.

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So yeah, absolutely not a 'yes-man'.

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Would you agree with that? Yeah, I would,

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I would pretty much agree with that.

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Um, I, I, I feel like feedback is,

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I mean, if if my employer didn't value my feedback,

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then I probably shouldn't be there. I,

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I, I would agree. I

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mean, we do talk at Leighton that feedback's a gift

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and it's Tom's gift to give me the feedback,

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and it's our gift, uh, you know, gift to, to receive it.

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And it's a two-way conversation.

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Whereas's in a lot of places.

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There are people who just at the top

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of a business will cascade that message

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or use whatever terminology that they want to,

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and that's where it stops.

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It's that kind of dictatorial setup. Yeah.

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You know, I very firmly believe

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that everybody's got a choice.

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You know, I've got a choice where I work.

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Tom's got a choice where he works.

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Uh, Tom made a choice to, to join us at the start,

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and we chose to, to offer Tom a role.

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'cause he wanted his feedback

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and we valued his, uh, valued his skills.

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Um, and Tom's got a choice now, two,

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three years on where he goes.

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And I still value his feedback

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and still value his, uh, his skills.

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So if I didn't listen, if we didn't listen

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as an organisation, we wouldn't be making the best choices

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for ourselves and we

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wouldn't be driving the business forward.

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'cause there undoubtedly is some good stuff

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that comes outta Tom

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and the rest of the team, not saying all of it's right.

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That's why we choose to listen or not.

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Not long after you joined, relatively soon,

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you were headhunted by somebody else.

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Yeah. Which you, um,

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you threw the gauntlet down to your relatively new employers

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to say, look, somebody's after me. Yeah.

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I think, um, they caught me at an interesting time.

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I was actually quite happy at Leighton.

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I think it was nine months in. I was quite happy at Leighton.

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I was doing work that I was proud of.

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Um, I had colleagues that I really enjoyed working with.

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In fact, the whole environment was quite new to

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what I was used to before, where I was more

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of a sole software engineer.

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Suddenly I was part of a team and a company

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that appreciates me and everything.

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But then an offer came through

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and offered me some sort of career progression, um,

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and really challenged, challenged me to think about

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where I wanna see myself in five years and what I wanna do.

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And they offered me all these new prospects.

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Um, but I had already gained some, a sense of loyalty

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to Leighton and appreciation for the company.

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Uh, I had to see what, um, James had to say

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to to, to, to these prospects, um,

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and whether he can convince me to stay.

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So what did you ask for?

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Um, he, he, I told him that I planning to take leave.

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I really wanted to take leave for a really long time.

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Uh, that, uh, I mentioned this to, um,

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Wait, wait, wait!

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You wanted to take leave

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and you'd wanted to do it for some time,

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but you'd only been at the company nine months?!

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I had been planning to go travel, uh, in Asia

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for like a good chunk of a year.

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Uh, but I'd been planning that since before Covid.

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And obviously that had, uh, you know,

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trickled down the timeline

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and found himself, found myself in Leighton by that time.

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And so my employer would've had to either agree

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to let me have that time away

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or would simply just find a new

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employer when I'm back. Even the

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Way you are talking about that.

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Yeah. You know, that was,

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It could be regarded by other people as quite cheeky.

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Yeah.

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You've probably heard this phrase now,

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but in Newcastle we have a phrase, 'shy bairns get nowt',

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and that's probably what you are talking about.

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Yeah. There we go. I mean, were you surprised?

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Here's a guy who you've taken on nine months in.

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Yes, he's headhunted,

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but he's asking for, did you ask for more money as well?

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I, I did, yeah. Okay. So he's asked for more money.

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He's asked for mentorship from you as CEO.

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He's asked for project development, but also time out.

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He wants to leave.

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See, when you play it back like that, I can see,

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I can see why you might be, uh, why you might be surprised.

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I think my, my take is I don't remember being

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particularly surprised.

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And we, we work really hard at Leighton to try

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and attract great people to work with us and

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'cause ultimately they're going to work with our customers.

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And I've been doing, I guess this job

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or other jobs for long enough to know

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that great people present challenges to kinda management

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and, and leadership because they want more.

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They want progression. They want to, you know,

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they want to grow themselves.

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So in lots of senses,

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I don't think I will have been surprised because we've gone

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and recruited Tom for being what we perceive

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as a, a great person.

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And therefore these challenges are always going

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to come further down the line.

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Um, and what I would say is that I remember distinctly that

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Tom approached everything in what I would say was a,

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a a professional, a good way to approach it.

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So, um, it never felt like a gun was held to our head.

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It never felt like we, it was a,

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I wouldn't really describe it as a negotiation.

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It was, this is where I'm at.

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These are the things that are important to me.

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It now happens. I might be able to get some

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of these things somewhere else.

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Is there anything you can, is there anything you can do?

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Um, and we work really hard

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to find those great people, as I said.

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So we absolutely want to retain them when we, when we can.

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And all of the things that Tom asked for, from,

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from my memory, were things

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that were really in our gift to give.

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So yes, as Tom says, it does take a little bit of time

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to move somebody from one project to another,

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but that is something that we can do.

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Mentorship was just asking for some of my time.

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That's something that I can do.

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Um, even the kind of the,

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the comment on I've been offered this much somewhere else

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was something that was within our gift.

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We could go and do some market research ourselves.

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Um, I think after that we moved to offering, uh,

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twice yearly salary reviews to make sure

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that our own salary data was, you know, pretty up

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to date when we were talking to colleagues.

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So, um, again, it was in our gift.

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It was something that we could do.

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It was something that we were comfortable to do.

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Is it about money at the end of it?

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Because it costs so much to recruit people

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that once you find the person you want, you don't wanna have

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to go through that at all Again,

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Uh, from my perspective, it's not about the, the money.

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I do take that point com completely.

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Um, we will only ever pay what we believe somebody is worth

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to our business.

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Um, and I know that they'll always be worth more

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to somebody else's business,

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although will always be bigger businesses than ours

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who can afford to pay them, can afford to pay them more.

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Um, so it's absolutely not just about the money from my

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perspective, we want to kind of, you know,

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look after the colleague.

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We want them to, you know, ultimately we talk about making

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them the best version of themselves.

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That's something that we think we can achieve as a kind

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of a smaller organisation

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that perhaps a larger organisation can't.

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I'm sure Tom will tell you it's,

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the money's really important

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'cause it is from a personal perspective,

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but I think there's probably other

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things that are important as

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Well. Oh, a hundred percent.

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Look, uh, for me,

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the money was important up to the point that I feel

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I'm not stretching my personal budget every month.

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Um, and I feel, I feel like that's where I am now.

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Um, so I think I, I challenged my wage,

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um, later down,

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I think maybe seven months later or something.

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We challenged the wage again,

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or maybe it was early, I can't remember now.

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00:08:44,825 --> 00:08:46,845
Um, you've done it that many times.

208
00:08:46,845 --> 00:08:48,245
Somewhere, somewhere along the line.

209
00:08:48,585 --> 00:08:52,565
Uh, I mean, I, I've challenged them a lot with, with, uh,

210
00:08:52,565 --> 00:08:54,845
my wage around the time they started doing the reviews.

211
00:08:55,185 --> 00:08:57,205
Um, uh,

212
00:08:57,865 --> 00:08:59,405
but for me it was about to get to the point

213
00:08:59,405 --> 00:09:02,805
where I'm comfortable with my wage enough that I don't have

214
00:09:02,805 --> 00:09:05,885
to, to keep looking to, to upgrade to get the next level.

215
00:09:06,385 --> 00:09:07,485
And I think that's where I'm now.

216
00:09:07,705 --> 00:09:11,245
And, um, but for me, ever since I was starting

217
00:09:11,625 --> 00:09:15,845
as a web developer, um, being in a company

218
00:09:15,845 --> 00:09:17,525
where I feel like I'm doing something important,

219
00:09:17,575 --> 00:09:21,285
where I'm being appreciated, where, um, I have a lot

220
00:09:21,285 --> 00:09:24,565
to contribute and generally just feels nice to work,

221
00:09:24,705 --> 00:09:26,125
to get up in the morning to do something.

222
00:09:26,285 --> 00:09:27,725
I think that was my ultimate goal.

223
00:09:27,785 --> 00:09:29,005
My personal, I don't know, there's a lot

224
00:09:29,005 --> 00:09:32,605
of people I guess out there, um, who, um,

225
00:09:33,545 --> 00:09:36,925
do chase, you know, the, the, the mega bucks, the wage.

226
00:09:36,925 --> 00:09:38,765
Yeah. Yeah, the mega bucks. That's good.

227
00:09:39,545 --> 00:09:41,405
Um, and that's all they're chasing. That's all they want.

228
00:09:41,705 --> 00:09:46,445
Um, I think, I think I was convinced that, um,

229
00:09:47,055 --> 00:09:48,125
money isn't everything.

230
00:09:48,425 --> 00:09:50,845
And being able to come home at the end

231
00:09:50,845 --> 00:09:52,365
of the day having feel accomplished

232
00:09:52,505 --> 00:09:55,525
and, um, done something contributed, changed,

233
00:09:55,525 --> 00:09:58,805
something affected people, I, I think

234
00:09:59,065 --> 00:10:02,525
that's much more wholesome, you know, uh,

235
00:10:03,025 --> 00:10:06,085
accomplishment than extra few pounds in your pocket.

236
00:10:06,395 --> 00:10:08,005
It's that job satisfaction. Yes.

237
00:10:08,025 --> 00:10:11,725
So everything in the round Yeah. Um, geographical spread.

238
00:10:11,865 --> 00:10:15,405
So it used to generally just be London waiting. Yep.

239
00:10:15,945 --> 00:10:19,125
Um, but now we've got all these pockets across the UK

240
00:10:19,465 --> 00:10:22,805
and beyond, um, where companies,

241
00:10:23,495 --> 00:10:25,045
yours will definitely be one of them

242
00:10:25,045 --> 00:10:26,285
because of the nature of your work.

243
00:10:26,865 --> 00:10:29,725
Um, having to make a decision about how much they pay people

244
00:10:29,825 --> 00:10:33,165
who are based in a certain area.

245
00:10:34,865 --> 00:10:36,045
How do you do it at Leighton?

246
00:10:36,785 --> 00:10:38,445
Um, I'll tell you how we do it.

247
00:10:38,505 --> 00:10:39,725
Uh, I'll tell you how we do it now.

248
00:10:39,725 --> 00:10:40,885
We've kind of been on a journey

249
00:10:40,945 --> 00:10:42,205
to get to this kind of point.

250
00:10:42,385 --> 00:10:47,325
So, um, one thing I guess in terms

251
00:10:47,325 --> 00:10:49,365
of kind of background, um,

252
00:10:49,505 --> 00:10:52,565
if customers want our colleagues on site,

253
00:10:52,565 --> 00:10:53,765
which doesn't happen very often,

254
00:10:53,865 --> 00:10:55,605
but does happen some, sometimes.

255
00:10:56,345 --> 00:10:57,565
Um, we've got two kind

256
00:10:57,565 --> 00:10:59,445
of different rate cards with our customers.

257
00:10:59,465 --> 00:11:02,245
So we have a kind of a, a London/South East what rate card

258
00:11:02,305 --> 00:11:04,245
and a UK kind of rate card.

259
00:11:04,745 --> 00:11:06,165
Um, what that means is

260
00:11:06,165 --> 00:11:09,005
that if the customer wants a colleague in a London office,

261
00:11:09,005 --> 00:11:10,205
they're gonna be paying kind

262
00:11:10,205 --> 00:11:11,805
of the London/South East rate card.

263
00:11:12,145 --> 00:11:13,365
If they want them somewhere else,

264
00:11:13,365 --> 00:11:15,325
they pay the the UK rate card.

265
00:11:15,865 --> 00:11:18,805
Um, so we now do salary benchmarking across

266
00:11:18,805 --> 00:11:19,845
those two geographies.

267
00:11:19,845 --> 00:11:23,285
Basically we have a UK salary banding

268
00:11:23,425 --> 00:11:25,125
and a London salary banding.

269
00:11:25,585 --> 00:11:27,645
Um, and that's how we do it.

270
00:11:27,665 --> 00:11:30,285
So we'll pay somebody, uh, if they're in Newcastle,

271
00:11:30,345 --> 00:11:32,525
we pay them on the uk, uh, salary banding.

272
00:11:32,825 --> 00:11:34,765
If they're based in, live in Shoreditch in London.

273
00:11:34,825 --> 00:11:37,565
We pay them on the kind of the, the London salary banding.

274
00:11:37,865 --> 00:11:39,445
And then we're able to mirror that

275
00:11:39,465 --> 00:11:41,205
to our customer rate cards.

276
00:11:41,435 --> 00:11:44,165
Like, in effect, we make the same amount

277
00:11:44,165 --> 00:11:46,685
of money whether they're, you know, UK or,

278
00:11:46,685 --> 00:11:48,645
or London based. Does that make sense?

279
00:11:49,025 --> 00:11:51,965
It does. I'm surprised there aren't any more bands.

280
00:11:52,595 --> 00:11:55,485
Yeah, we've, we have had more bands.

281
00:11:56,105 --> 00:12:00,525
Um, so historically we had a UK band, uh,

282
00:12:00,545 --> 00:12:02,365
we had a London and a South East band,

283
00:12:02,425 --> 00:12:03,845
and we had a North East band.

284
00:12:04,545 --> 00:12:08,605
Um, and what we've tried to, to do is to move to the two,

285
00:12:08,605 --> 00:12:11,005
because ultimately what we wanted to try

286
00:12:11,005 --> 00:12:13,965
and do is pay people in the North East more money,

287
00:12:14,685 --> 00:12:17,045
actually they're, you know, at least as valuable to us

288
00:12:17,065 --> 00:12:18,445
as the kind of the rest of the team.

289
00:12:18,865 --> 00:12:20,925
How do we use this as an opportunity to kind

290
00:12:20,925 --> 00:12:22,125
of get more salary?

291
00:12:22,265 --> 00:12:24,645
But, uh, yes, more salary parity

292
00:12:24,875 --> 00:12:28,045
Because societally that, that, that was an issue I think

293
00:12:28,145 --> 00:12:30,005
for the, for the North East as a region.

294
00:12:30,385 --> 00:12:33,285
You know, people were wondering, are you just coming for me

295
00:12:33,285 --> 00:12:36,725
because I'm cheap labour rather than having unique

296
00:12:36,795 --> 00:12:38,445
qualities and all the rest of it.

297
00:12:38,675 --> 00:12:40,365
Yeah, AB absolutely.

298
00:12:40,365 --> 00:12:41,925
And I think what we've kind of, you know,

299
00:12:42,115 --> 00:12:44,965
what we found in our research is that there, you know,

300
00:12:44,965 --> 00:12:47,885
there are other, other cities that you could class

301
00:12:47,905 --> 00:12:50,285
as being in a similar kind of position to the, to,

302
00:12:50,285 --> 00:12:51,645
to Newcastle as an example.

303
00:12:52,065 --> 00:12:53,565
But actually in our previous model,

304
00:12:53,705 --> 00:12:56,445
we would be paying a colleague in that city more.

305
00:12:56,665 --> 00:12:58,325
So this gives us a chance to kind

306
00:12:58,325 --> 00:12:59,845
of reward our North East colleagues.

307
00:13:00,745 --> 00:13:04,525
So that means Tom is getting paid more

308
00:13:05,675 --> 00:13:08,565
than one of his colleagues at the same level,

309
00:13:09,115 --> 00:13:10,285
just because he lives in London.

310
00:13:11,225 --> 00:13:14,045
Uh, yes. If, if the colleague doesn't live in London,

311
00:13:14,115 --> 00:13:15,845
then Tom's getting paid more.

312
00:13:16,355 --> 00:13:20,245
My kind of rationale for, for that is that, um, we're able

313
00:13:20,245 --> 00:13:21,965
to charge the customer more for Tom

314
00:13:21,965 --> 00:13:25,205
because Tom's gonna be potentially going into a London based

315
00:13:25,285 --> 00:13:28,245
office, whereas our colleague in Newcastle wouldn't be going

316
00:13:28,275 --> 00:13:29,645
into that London based office.

317
00:13:30,475 --> 00:13:32,085
What do you think, Tom?

318
00:13:32,885 --> 00:13:36,445
O Uh, I think you don't want

319
00:13:36,445 --> 00:13:37,685
that on tape, is what I think.

320
00:13:38,145 --> 00:13:41,565
Um, I think, um,

321
00:13:43,285 --> 00:13:45,125
I mean it's advantageous to me.

322
00:13:45,625 --> 00:13:48,405
Um, certainly, um, I think

323
00:13:49,325 --> 00:13:50,885
I do pay higher rents

324
00:13:50,905 --> 00:13:53,245
and everything in London, living in London.

325
00:13:54,145 --> 00:13:57,765
Um, but thinking about it outside of me for a second,

326
00:13:59,745 --> 00:14:02,045
if I'm not required in the office, there's actually

327
00:14:02,665 --> 00:14:04,365
no reason why you should be paying me more

328
00:14:04,365 --> 00:14:05,405
than someone in Newcastle.

329
00:14:05,595 --> 00:14:06,805
It's my choice to live in London.

330
00:14:06,895 --> 00:14:08,805
You'd pay me whether I live in London

331
00:14:08,985 --> 00:14:12,925
or on a boat, uh, out outside of Newcastle.

332
00:14:13,385 --> 00:14:15,205
It doesn't really matter. Um,

333
00:14:15,485 --> 00:14:17,085
I do the same work for the same client.

334
00:14:17,705 --> 00:14:22,125
Um, that's just me. Uh, but thanks.

335
00:14:24,885 --> 00:14:28,845
I shall move you to the, the, uh, uk I'll go backwards.

336
00:14:29,355 --> 00:14:30,605
It's quite what, what is the

337
00:14:30,605 --> 00:14:31,725
reason for paying a more, it's,

338
00:14:32,025 --> 00:14:35,645
It may, maybe we do end up moving to two salary bands,

339
00:14:35,645 --> 00:14:38,685
and one is, are you prepared to travel to an office?

340
00:14:39,585 --> 00:14:41,565
Are you not prepared to travel to an office?

341
00:14:41,565 --> 00:14:44,925
Because actually that's the, that's the point of equality

342
00:14:45,105 --> 00:14:46,365
or equity probably there.

343
00:14:46,865 --> 00:14:50,605
So, uh, fun point of contention when I, um,

344
00:14:51,585 --> 00:14:52,925
Is that a phrase he uses a lot.

345
00:14:53,945 --> 00:14:55,325
Fun point of contention.

346
00:14:55,875 --> 00:14:57,605
It's always fun working with Tom.

347
00:14:57,825 --> 00:15:01,885
Yes. Um, I think it was a couple months in, um,

348
00:15:03,075 --> 00:15:06,485
that, uh, our client held a really big, uh,

349
00:15:06,505 --> 00:15:07,605
all hands meeting.

350
00:15:08,345 --> 00:15:09,445
Uh, and that was in London,

351
00:15:09,665 --> 00:15:12,485
but it was all the way on the other side of London.

352
00:15:12,825 --> 00:15:15,765
Uh, it would, it I think took me two

353
00:15:16,145 --> 00:15:19,725
and a half hours, no, about two hours to get there, um,

354
00:15:20,275 --> 00:15:21,645
through all the public transport.

355
00:15:22,145 --> 00:15:24,645
And I was asked to come in at nine, um,

356
00:15:25,345 --> 00:15:26,605
to the other side of London.

357
00:15:27,105 --> 00:15:30,925
And, um, I I, I was quite,

358
00:15:31,265 --> 00:15:32,445
um, taken back.

359
00:15:32,525 --> 00:15:34,885
I was, I, I went to my line manager at the time

360
00:15:35,345 --> 00:15:38,845
and I said, uh, is there anything we can negotiate with the,

361
00:15:38,945 --> 00:15:40,925
uh, the client that we won't come in at

362
00:15:40,955 --> 00:15:42,205
nine, but maybe a bit later?

363
00:15:42,305 --> 00:15:45,525
And I like, is just ridiculous.

364
00:15:45,785 --> 00:15:50,165
And, um, my manager at the time said, uh, well,

365
00:15:50,225 --> 00:15:51,805
it does stipulate in your contract

366
00:15:52,355 --> 00:15:54,765
that you are expected to go to the client.

367
00:15:55,105 --> 00:15:58,365
And so I did. But I, I wasn't happy about it at all. Um,

368
00:15:58,585 --> 00:15:59,885
Was this just one day, Tom?

369
00:15:59,985 --> 00:16:02,165
It was just from 9:00 AM to five? Yes.

370
00:16:04,145 --> 00:16:06,565
Tom, that's one day. I know.

371
00:16:08,025 --> 00:16:09,525
And you kicked off about it? Oh yes.

372
00:16:09,805 --> 00:16:11,285
'cause I was, I was a remote worker

373
00:16:11,665 --> 00:16:15,045
and I had not read that specific line in my contract

374
00:16:15,045 --> 00:16:17,245
that says, and also I thought it was just on the,

375
00:16:17,265 --> 00:16:18,845
on the edge of 30 miles as well.

376
00:16:18,845 --> 00:16:20,885
It was like 29 something. I was ah,

377
00:16:21,625 --> 00:16:25,245
In, in fairness, I, I do kind of see Tom's point.

378
00:16:25,405 --> 00:16:28,085
'cause I would imagine that the 30 miles is probably a

379
00:16:28,085 --> 00:16:29,885
legacy from a North East business

380
00:16:30,585 --> 00:16:33,205
at at Leighton and Newcastle.

381
00:16:33,385 --> 00:16:35,245
And it wouldn't take you two hours

382
00:16:35,345 --> 00:16:37,285
to travel 30 miles in the North East.

383
00:16:37,635 --> 00:16:40,485
Yeah. Um, so we probably wouldn't really have thought about

384
00:16:40,545 --> 00:16:43,525
the, uh, uh, I guess the implications of that

385
00:16:43,545 --> 00:16:45,485
as we've rolled out to a more national team,

386
00:16:45,785 --> 00:16:48,485
But it does highlight something else, which I feel that,

387
00:16:48,705 --> 00:16:52,005
um, you are robust enough to handle what I'm about to say.

388
00:16:52,105 --> 00:16:54,245
Yes. I think that, um, which is

389
00:16:55,505 --> 00:16:57,445
the dynamic has definitely changed.

390
00:16:57,695 --> 00:17:01,725
We're talking about work culture in terms of, um,

391
00:17:02,195 --> 00:17:05,725
enlightened com companies and enlightened bosses

392
00:17:06,185 --> 00:17:08,925
and the empowered workforce, particularly post covid.

393
00:17:09,905 --> 00:17:12,365
But are you just expecting too much?

394
00:17:14,225 --> 00:17:15,525
You know, you possibly, yeah.

395
00:17:17,365 --> 00:17:21,685
I mean, in a world where everyone went to work every day,

396
00:17:22,105 --> 00:17:25,285
no matter how freakin' far it might be, yeah.

397
00:17:25,665 --> 00:17:28,765
Uh, I've become a bit spoiled by, um, you know,

398
00:17:28,765 --> 00:17:30,085
the remote working conditions.

399
00:17:30,645 --> 00:17:31,645
A hundred percent.

400
00:17:32,425 --> 00:17:34,005
Do you think we'll ever return

401
00:17:34,465 --> 00:17:36,405
or do you think you're, you're the future?

402
00:17:36,685 --> 00:17:39,085
I think, I think the data suggests, uh,

403
00:17:39,405 --> 00:17:43,925
regurgitating stuff off LinkedIn, um, that, uh,

404
00:17:44,925 --> 00:17:48,485
companies who track back lose their best employees

405
00:17:48,545 --> 00:17:50,085
to the companies that don't.

406
00:17:50,985 --> 00:17:53,605
Um, I, so I don't think we're going back.

407
00:17:53,805 --> 00:17:55,925
I don't think, uh, I think the companies

408
00:17:55,925 --> 00:17:59,725
that are rolling back into more office hours in office

409
00:17:59,725 --> 00:18:03,445
hours, um, are gonna lose from that.

410
00:18:04,185 --> 00:18:08,285
So this is the future, the hybrid model

411
00:18:08,585 --> 00:18:10,885
or the completely remote model is here to stay.

412
00:18:11,265 --> 00:18:15,085
So the way that Leighton's set up, so North East business,

413
00:18:15,815 --> 00:18:19,405
60% of your team based in the northeast here?

414
00:18:19,435 --> 00:18:22,405
Yeah. And then about 40% working remotely.

415
00:18:22,785 --> 00:18:24,405
So London, Manchester,

416
00:18:24,675 --> 00:18:26,485
Glasgow being the main, the main pocket.

417
00:18:27,625 --> 00:18:30,685
How do you make sure that the remote workers- Tom,

418
00:18:30,745 --> 00:18:32,245
you being one of them based in London,

419
00:18:33,275 --> 00:18:34,685
have the same experience

420
00:18:35,385 --> 00:18:38,765
and feel that latent work culture in all

421
00:18:38,765 --> 00:18:42,445
of its glory despite barely ever coming to the office?

422
00:18:42,955 --> 00:18:44,365
I'll tell you how we try to do it.

423
00:18:44,545 --> 00:18:47,125
It might be interesting to hear Tom's perspective on whether

424
00:18:47,465 --> 00:18:48,885
on whether that lands or not.

425
00:18:49,505 --> 00:18:52,485
Um, so as I've said this, we work really hard

426
00:18:52,485 --> 00:18:53,685
to attract the right people.

427
00:18:54,505 --> 00:18:56,525
We absolutely try

428
00:18:56,525 --> 00:18:59,805
and tell them what the latent experience is going to be like

429
00:18:59,805 --> 00:19:01,405
before they, before they start.

430
00:19:01,545 --> 00:19:05,525
So we want them to be clear on kind of our expectations,

431
00:19:06,345 --> 00:19:07,685
um, so that they don't come in

432
00:19:07,685 --> 00:19:10,005
and they're expecting something different to what we can,

433
00:19:10,075 --> 00:19:11,125
what we can deliver.

434
00:19:11,745 --> 00:19:14,565
Um, first couple of weeks at Leighton quite focused on

435
00:19:15,255 --> 00:19:18,685
onboarding values, kind of communication channels.

436
00:19:19,425 --> 00:19:21,925
Um, and then they're into the kind of the flow of work

437
00:19:21,985 --> 00:19:23,525
and their, and their projects.

438
00:19:24,185 --> 00:19:28,325
And most teams will have a kind of a Standup every day.

439
00:19:28,325 --> 00:19:30,605
So they'll kind of spend the first kind of 10, 15 minutes

440
00:19:30,605 --> 00:19:31,725
of the day with their team.

441
00:19:32,035 --> 00:19:34,125
Sometimes that will include Leighton colleagues

442
00:19:34,125 --> 00:19:35,165
and sometimes it won't,

443
00:19:35,185 --> 00:19:37,445
but they're becoming part of a team there.

444
00:19:38,345 --> 00:19:41,925
Uh, once a week we do a Leighton Lowdown. Leighton Lowdown's

445
00:19:42,335 --> 00:19:45,925
about half an hour, um, updating on the kind of the progress

446
00:19:45,925 --> 00:19:47,165
that we're making as a business,

447
00:19:47,345 --> 00:19:50,165
but there's some kind of less, sorry, less formal stuff.

448
00:19:50,275 --> 00:19:52,845
Yeah. Recognition, some social stuff

449
00:19:52,845 --> 00:19:54,525
that sits within that as well. Did

450
00:19:54,525 --> 00:19:55,885
You say every week you do that? We do

451
00:19:55,885 --> 00:19:57,125
That every week, yes. Every

452
00:19:57,125 --> 00:19:58,125
Week. Yeah.

453
00:19:58,125 --> 00:20:00,505
So that's,

454
00:20:00,765 --> 00:20:02,505
that's everybody plugged in at the same

455
00:20:02,505 --> 00:20:03,585
time, or certain groups?

456
00:20:03,885 --> 00:20:05,745
Um, in essence,

457
00:20:05,775 --> 00:20:07,225
it's everybody plugged in at the same time,

458
00:20:07,245 --> 00:20:09,345
but they're in their groups plugged in at that time.

459
00:20:09,565 --> 00:20:11,465
So typically there'll be five

460
00:20:11,485 --> 00:20:14,185
or 10 people in one group, another five people in another,

461
00:20:14,685 --> 00:20:16,345
two or three people in a, in another.

462
00:20:16,345 --> 00:20:18,985
It's the teams that they're working with that kind of week.

463
00:20:19,565 --> 00:20:22,385
Uh, that's the Standup, uh, sorry. The, the Lowdown.

464
00:20:22,795 --> 00:20:26,985
Every Friday, half an hour. Um, everybody's invited.

465
00:20:27,645 --> 00:20:30,465
Not everybody has to 10 attend. It's not mandatory.

466
00:20:31,165 --> 00:20:34,865
We probably get 40, 50, um, percent each week.

467
00:20:35,585 --> 00:20:36,985
I guess we get sort of 70,

468
00:20:36,985 --> 00:20:40,265
80% coverage across the business in a, uh, in a month.

469
00:20:40,965 --> 00:20:43,505
Um, and that's kind of, as I said, business progress,

470
00:20:43,725 --> 00:20:45,905
social, kind of trying to hook them,

471
00:20:45,925 --> 00:20:47,025
uh, trying to hook them in.

472
00:20:47,665 --> 00:20:49,605
Um, we do something called a community day.

473
00:20:49,745 --> 00:20:52,085
So we will go out into a location

474
00:20:52,085 --> 00:20:54,805
where we know we've got a lot of colleagues, uh,

475
00:20:54,875 --> 00:20:58,165
rent an office for the day, um, do office stuff,

476
00:20:58,195 --> 00:20:59,485
work together during the day,

477
00:20:59,485 --> 00:21:00,925
and then do a social afterwards.

478
00:21:01,585 --> 00:21:04,125
Um, and then two or three times a year we'll have kind

479
00:21:04,125 --> 00:21:06,845
of a more formal kind of company get-together.

480
00:21:07,545 --> 00:21:11,725
Um, normally here in Newcastle where really that is the kind

481
00:21:11,725 --> 00:21:14,485
of the one mandatory event that we, uh, that we do.

482
00:21:14,905 --> 00:21:17,925
We probably get kind of 90% kind of attendance at that.

483
00:21:18,585 --> 00:21:20,885
Why do you do it so often? You know,

484
00:21:20,885 --> 00:21:21,885
when people are saying about, oh,

485
00:21:21,885 --> 00:21:23,005
there's always too many meetings.

486
00:21:23,005 --> 00:21:23,885
Yeah, always too many meetings.

487
00:21:23,885 --> 00:21:25,085
Why don't you just pair that back?

488
00:21:25,235 --> 00:21:27,005
Yeah, it's, I think it's a really good,

489
00:21:27,165 --> 00:21:28,245
I think it's a really good challenge.

490
00:21:29,265 --> 00:21:32,885
Um, in our business stuff does, I feel moves quite quickly,

491
00:21:33,065 --> 00:21:35,325
so I don't think we're ever kinda short of content.

492
00:21:36,225 --> 00:21:38,485
If we are, the meeting just becomes 15 minutes

493
00:21:38,505 --> 00:21:41,125
and not half an hour because we've gone around the kind

494
00:21:41,125 --> 00:21:42,165
of the screen as it were

495
00:21:42,225 --> 00:21:43,805
and there's not enough to kind of cover.

496
00:21:43,825 --> 00:21:46,525
And that's fine. People get the 15 minutes back.

497
00:21:47,145 --> 00:21:50,885
Um, but invariably there is this project updates,

498
00:21:50,955 --> 00:21:52,965
there's people wanting to do a shout out

499
00:21:52,965 --> 00:21:54,445
to a colleague who's really helped them.

500
00:21:55,025 --> 00:21:57,925
We maybe got some new starters to introduce it.

501
00:21:57,925 --> 00:22:00,085
It it's rare that we're short of content.

502
00:22:00,965 --> 00:22:04,005
I guess the why is to, to answer your original question,

503
00:22:04,005 --> 00:22:06,445
which was almost like how do you keep people connected?

504
00:22:06,545 --> 00:22:08,365
How do you get them involved in the business?

505
00:22:08,905 --> 00:22:10,725
And this is one of the tools that we use

506
00:22:10,725 --> 00:22:11,845
to get them involved.

507
00:22:12,475 --> 00:22:14,965
It's quite interesting. I've only just seen the data

508
00:22:14,965 --> 00:22:17,525
that we're doing employee engagement survey twice a year.

509
00:22:18,345 --> 00:22:22,125
Um, and we are able to assess him with that, how kind

510
00:22:22,125 --> 00:22:24,405
of the people close to the office, close

511
00:22:24,405 --> 00:22:26,805
to Newcastle field versus colleagues remotely.

512
00:22:27,505 --> 00:22:30,685
Um, and the engagement level is exactly the same across the

513
00:22:30,685 --> 00:22:31,805
two cohorts now.

514
00:22:32,265 --> 00:22:34,685
It didn't use to be, there did used to be a disconnect

515
00:22:34,685 --> 00:22:37,005
between kind of the, the people further away

516
00:22:37,065 --> 00:22:39,805
and in the North East and now it's the same.

517
00:22:39,865 --> 00:22:42,005
So I think there's, there's definitely something

518
00:22:42,005 --> 00:22:43,565
to take from what we're doing in terms

519
00:22:43,565 --> 00:22:44,845
of keeping people engaged.

520
00:22:45,025 --> 00:22:48,605
And has that level of engagement risen from the remote

521
00:22:48,605 --> 00:22:49,805
workers or dropped from the workers?

522
00:22:49,915 --> 00:22:52,805
Yeah. Good, good question. It, it's risen in both counts.

523
00:22:52,805 --> 00:22:55,645
It's just risen quicker in the remote work account.

524
00:22:56,185 --> 00:22:58,165
So does this fit with your experience?

525
00:22:58,185 --> 00:23:01,085
And this is the idea that comes top down.

526
00:23:01,215 --> 00:23:03,325
These are the things we're gonna put in the diary for you.

527
00:23:03,555 --> 00:23:05,125
Then you're gonna feel really part

528
00:23:05,145 --> 00:23:08,525
of a connected team even though you are 300 odd miles away.

529
00:23:09,985 --> 00:23:14,285
Uh, so this is, this has been a really hot topic,

530
00:23:14,405 --> 00:23:15,765
I think over the last two years.

531
00:23:16,185 --> 00:23:17,445
And we all work at home

532
00:23:17,545 --> 00:23:20,805
or in remote offices, um, often, um,

533
00:23:21,015 --> 00:23:22,885
completely disconnected from Layton

534
00:23:22,955 --> 00:23:25,765
because we're working with clients directly.

535
00:23:26,385 --> 00:23:28,805
Uh, and I remember at the beginning there could be maybe a

536
00:23:28,805 --> 00:23:29,925
month, two months can go

537
00:23:29,925 --> 00:23:32,765
by without me ever talking to a Leighton employee. Um,

538
00:23:33,725 --> 00:23:35,165
'cause you're effectively working as a consultant.

539
00:23:35,165 --> 00:23:37,845
Exactly. So you're embedded with the firm. Exactly.

540
00:23:37,935 --> 00:23:42,375
Right. And so, uh, there,

541
00:23:42,635 --> 00:23:47,045
so Leighton has created multiple committees over a course

542
00:23:47,105 --> 00:23:50,765
of a year of trying to tackle that, those problems.

543
00:23:51,105 --> 00:23:55,165
Um, I was constantly banging on saying

544
00:23:56,075 --> 00:23:57,125
it's impossible to fix.

545
00:23:57,885 --> 00:24:00,645
I don't think I understand why it's important.

546
00:24:00,845 --> 00:24:04,445
I understand why we should, um, try

547
00:24:04,445 --> 00:24:07,045
and make it more engaging, but it's, it's really hard

548
00:24:07,045 --> 00:24:09,205
because we don't work together.

549
00:24:10,385 --> 00:24:12,645
Um, there is no real visibility over

550
00:24:12,915 --> 00:24:14,325
what I do well and what I don't.

551
00:24:14,325 --> 00:24:17,125
They can only find out from what the, uh,

552
00:24:17,125 --> 00:24:18,405
client feed feeds back

553
00:24:18,405 --> 00:24:22,245
and there is no, uh, effective tool of getting

554
00:24:22,245 --> 00:24:24,445
that feedback regularly.

555
00:24:24,745 --> 00:24:26,845
And, um, and robustly

556
00:24:26,845 --> 00:24:28,965
because while they have other things

557
00:24:28,985 --> 00:24:32,885
to do than continuously, uh, give feedback for, um,

558
00:24:33,515 --> 00:24:35,165
what is 70 employees or so.

559
00:24:35,705 --> 00:24:40,045
Um, so it's very challenging. Uh, I would say impossible.

560
00:24:40,985 --> 00:24:43,085
Um, so I'm actually,

561
00:24:43,085 --> 00:24:45,405
this is the first time I hear about these stats changing.

562
00:24:45,585 --> 00:24:49,565
So, um, kudos! Didn't think you could do it. There

563
00:24:49,585 --> 00:24:54,525
Is this challenge of how to unify that workforce,

564
00:24:54,855 --> 00:24:59,205
which increases loyalty, passes on the company values,

565
00:25:00,675 --> 00:25:01,965
yada, yada, yada, all of that.

566
00:25:02,385 --> 00:25:04,045
But you really didn't think it was possible?

567
00:25:04,755 --> 00:25:08,565
Because there is, um, an intrinsic disconnect between

568
00:25:08,565 --> 00:25:10,645
what we do and who pays us to do the work.

569
00:25:11,505 --> 00:25:15,575
Um, while I work for Leighton,

570
00:25:15,715 --> 00:25:17,055
I'm not doing Leighton's work

571
00:25:17,875 --> 00:25:21,615
and there is, there is no way,

572
00:25:23,095 --> 00:25:25,295
I don't feel like there is a real way for us

573
00:25:25,315 --> 00:25:27,895
to feel cohesive when we're not actually working together.

574
00:25:28,915 --> 00:25:31,535
How does that make you feel as the boss? Um,

575
00:25:32,405 --> 00:25:33,405
Yeah.

576
00:25:33,805 --> 00:25:34,895
Okay. And not so,

577
00:25:35,155 --> 00:25:36,815
and not, so okay. I think,

578
00:25:37,055 --> 00:25:39,295
I think Tom's point is valid, isn't it?

579
00:25:39,295 --> 00:25:42,015
And you certainly, when I've been in other businesses,

580
00:25:42,755 --> 00:25:46,415
the people that are doing the work, um, are, you know,

581
00:25:46,585 --> 00:25:49,015
being managed by other people in the business,

582
00:25:49,075 --> 00:25:50,935
you're all in a team to together.

583
00:25:51,715 --> 00:25:53,575
Um, and that's not the case here.

584
00:25:53,715 --> 00:25:56,175
We, we are basically going in as consultants

585
00:25:56,555 --> 00:26:00,775
and we are agreeing upfront with the, the customer, the work

586
00:26:00,775 --> 00:26:02,415
that we are going to deliver.

587
00:26:02,755 --> 00:26:05,415
And we're, you know, telling them we've got great qualified

588
00:26:05,415 --> 00:26:06,735
people to, to do that.

589
00:26:07,555 --> 00:26:11,175
Um, and then Tom or other colleagues go off and do the work.

590
00:26:11,555 --> 00:26:14,135
And really, part of the reason that you'd choose to work

591
00:26:14,135 --> 00:26:16,175
with a consultancy like Leighton is

592
00:26:16,175 --> 00:26:17,335
you just want the work done.

593
00:26:17,395 --> 00:26:18,895
You want it done to a high standard.

594
00:26:19,395 --> 00:26:22,735
You don't really want to get into people management

595
00:26:22,795 --> 00:26:24,135
or providing feedback.

596
00:26:24,235 --> 00:26:25,855
So I definitely accept

597
00:26:25,855 --> 00:26:28,615
that it is a lot harder in our business than it is in other

598
00:26:28,855 --> 00:26:31,615
businesses to kind of make people connected

599
00:26:31,615 --> 00:26:34,535
because in essence we want to out there with the customer,

600
00:26:35,155 --> 00:26:38,495
um, rather than sat in our, rather than sat in our business.

601
00:26:39,195 --> 00:26:43,015
Um, that being said, as as I've said, I think there's kind

602
00:26:43,085 --> 00:26:44,245
of lots of value in trying

603
00:26:44,245 --> 00:26:46,725
to hook Tom into these other things.

604
00:26:46,775 --> 00:26:48,365
We're gonna do more stuff this year.

605
00:26:48,455 --> 00:26:51,405
We're gonna create communities of practice in our business,

606
00:26:51,405 --> 00:26:54,165
which will give Tom another source of connecting

607
00:26:54,165 --> 00:26:55,965
with colleagues who in, you know, in,

608
00:26:56,145 --> 00:26:57,525
in the engineering space.

609
00:26:58,105 --> 00:26:59,885
Um, and I guess by

610
00:26:59,885 --> 00:27:03,485
and large, if, if we do enough of these things, some

611
00:27:03,485 --> 00:27:05,645
of them will stick for the kind of the colleagues.

612
00:27:05,665 --> 00:27:07,925
So Tom might choose to be more engaged in the

613
00:27:08,075 --> 00:27:09,285
communities of practice.

614
00:27:09,525 --> 00:27:10,685
'cause that's gonna help him a bit more

615
00:27:10,685 --> 00:27:11,885
with his career development.

616
00:27:12,345 --> 00:27:13,885
And perhaps he'll be a bit less engaged

617
00:27:13,885 --> 00:27:14,965
in some of the social things.

618
00:27:15,205 --> 00:27:16,685
'cause he doesn't need them. He's got lots

619
00:27:16,685 --> 00:27:18,485
of social stuff going on outside of work.

620
00:27:18,485 --> 00:27:20,845
Another part of the hybrid working environment,

621
00:27:20,905 --> 00:27:24,205
of course is um, if you don't have a home office.

622
00:27:25,265 --> 00:27:27,245
Yes. So I think most of us, uh,

623
00:27:27,385 --> 00:27:29,685
at Leighton do prefer to work from home.

624
00:27:29,745 --> 00:27:31,165
The one, the the remote ones.

625
00:27:31,705 --> 00:27:34,845
Uh, but um, between getting hired

626
00:27:34,985 --> 00:27:36,125
and actually starting the job,

627
00:27:36,185 --> 00:27:38,085
my situation at home quite changed to the point

628
00:27:38,085 --> 00:27:40,485
that I was unable to work at home anymore.

629
00:27:40,865 --> 00:27:43,205
Uh, it was just too difficult.

630
00:27:43,785 --> 00:27:45,845
Um, and had to get a rental office.

631
00:27:45,905 --> 00:27:47,205
And so I asked, um,

632
00:27:47,225 --> 00:27:51,765
before starting if they would allow me, um, to rent a desk,

633
00:27:52,145 --> 00:27:55,045
um, and like a WeWork or something similar, uh,

634
00:27:55,585 --> 00:27:59,205
and if they'd be willing to contribute to that.

635
00:27:59,465 --> 00:28:01,605
And so we, we've come to an agreement, it was very nice

636
00:28:01,605 --> 00:28:03,325
of them because they absolutely did not have

637
00:28:03,325 --> 00:28:05,725
to already signed a contract, um,

638
00:28:06,825 --> 00:28:08,125
to agree to pay for half of it.

639
00:28:08,425 --> 00:28:10,805
So, uh, ever since starting, I've been working in,

640
00:28:10,825 --> 00:28:14,325
in an office in a shed desk and you, and you might say,

641
00:28:14,665 --> 00:28:17,285
but why then why then do you wanna work, uh,

642
00:28:17,285 --> 00:28:19,085
in a hybrid situation if you wanna work with that?

643
00:28:19,085 --> 00:28:20,845
Because it's five minutes away from my house

644
00:28:21,345 --> 00:28:23,005
and I don't have to do a morning commute.

645
00:28:23,425 --> 00:28:26,845
And uh, uh, I get to work, uh, next

646
00:28:26,845 --> 00:28:28,085
to my friend who's also a

647
00:28:28,085 --> 00:28:29,485
developer, but for a different company.

648
00:28:30,105 --> 00:28:31,645
Um, and so I've kind

649
00:28:31,645 --> 00:28:33,445
of created a little heaven around my house.

650
00:28:34,625 --> 00:28:36,205
And with the help of Leighton,

651
00:28:37,305 --> 00:28:39,885
You accepted paying half and this is in London.

652
00:28:40,225 --> 00:28:43,685
So yeah, this desk rental is gonna be considerably more than

653
00:28:43,685 --> 00:28:45,725
it might be elsewhere in the uk. Yeah, that's

654
00:28:45,885 --> 00:28:46,885
Probably true.

655
00:28:47,005 --> 00:28:48,285
Ultimately, we want to attract great talent.

656
00:28:48,505 --> 00:28:53,005
We want to retain great talent. We have a policy at Leighton.

657
00:28:53,005 --> 00:28:54,325
It's not actually remote working.

658
00:28:54,435 --> 00:28:57,685
It's kind of flexible choice, which is about enabling people

659
00:28:57,785 --> 00:28:59,965
to choose where they're going to do their best work.

660
00:29:00,275 --> 00:29:02,285
Sometimes that might be the office, sometimes

661
00:29:02,285 --> 00:29:03,805
that might be at home, sometimes it

662
00:29:03,805 --> 00:29:05,005
might be a customer's site.

663
00:29:05,005 --> 00:29:06,205
But it's all about giving the co

664
00:29:06,225 --> 00:29:07,405
the colleague the, the choice.

665
00:29:08,305 --> 00:29:11,805
And for me, we've gone to the trouble of finding Tom.

666
00:29:11,825 --> 00:29:13,165
We believe he's great talent.

667
00:29:13,835 --> 00:29:15,085
He's now telling us actually

668
00:29:15,085 --> 00:29:16,765
where he's gonna do most of his great work.

669
00:29:16,875 --> 00:29:18,925
He's gonna be in this shared office environment.

670
00:29:19,985 --> 00:29:21,645
We want to support him to do that.

671
00:29:21,645 --> 00:29:24,765
And yeah, actually what we ended up with is a, a compromise

672
00:29:24,765 --> 00:29:26,005
that works for, for both of us.

673
00:29:26,305 --> 00:29:28,845
He pays some of it and we pay some of it. What

674
00:29:28,845 --> 00:29:31,405
If he chooses quite a high-end office?

675
00:29:32,145 --> 00:29:35,645
That's probably a slightly different conversation. Um,

676
00:29:36,625 --> 00:29:39,765
So you have put James on the ropes a few times.

677
00:29:41,065 --> 00:29:45,805
Um, so I wanted to take about six months away, um,

678
00:29:47,025 --> 00:29:50,325
unpaid, um, to, you know,

679
00:29:50,385 --> 00:29:52,125
do my big travel in Asia.

680
00:29:53,225 --> 00:29:55,205
Um, something I wanted to do for years.

681
00:29:56,505 --> 00:30:00,125
And, um, I worked out that the

682
00:30:01,315 --> 00:30:03,725
best way for me to do that without um,

683
00:30:04,555 --> 00:30:06,445
without hurting Leighton was

684
00:30:06,445 --> 00:30:08,245
to find someone to fill my place.

685
00:30:09,465 --> 00:30:14,245
Um, so I had, um, heard from a colleague

686
00:30:14,245 --> 00:30:17,405
that was, uh, that took my place in my last workplace.

687
00:30:17,605 --> 00:30:22,365
I helped hire him, um, that he was kind of ready to, to

688
00:30:22,875 --> 00:30:25,605
move on or ready to start looking for new opportunities.

689
00:30:26,185 --> 00:30:30,805
Uh, and so I started, um, guiding him into, uh,

690
00:30:31,185 --> 00:30:34,565
all the necessary technology that he needs in order

691
00:30:34,565 --> 00:30:37,405
to fit right in to where I was sitting.

692
00:30:38,105 --> 00:30:40,405
You like a, a weird puppet master.

693
00:30:42,185 --> 00:30:44,765
Uh, the way I saw it is I was giving him the opportunity

694
00:30:44,995 --> 00:30:49,885
that I needed and his place I was, uh, filling in a blank

695
00:30:50,115 --> 00:30:52,165
that I knew Leighton would have, should I leave.

696
00:30:52,525 --> 00:30:55,525
I was basically making sure that everyone involved is happy

697
00:30:55,525 --> 00:30:56,525
with my decision to leave.

698
00:30:56,805 --> 00:30:58,165
Everyone's a winner Winner. Everyone's a winner.

699
00:30:58,165 --> 00:30:59,805
That's what I was trying to get. Everyone's a winner. Okay.

700
00:30:59,945 --> 00:31:03,885
And as James knows, uh, I like to go into negotiation,

701
00:31:03,885 --> 00:31:06,645
giving, um, an easy yes.

702
00:31:07,265 --> 00:31:09,005
Uh, letting them have an easy yes.

703
00:31:09,545 --> 00:31:12,645
So, um, that's how I went with it. I gave him an easy yes.

704
00:31:12,805 --> 00:31:14,685
I wanted him to not be able to say no,

705
00:31:15,385 --> 00:31:17,645
You already have a scheme set up for

706
00:31:17,675 --> 00:31:18,725
that type of thing, don't

707
00:31:18,725 --> 00:31:19,725
You? Yeah. We have a,

708
00:31:19,725 --> 00:31:21,405
a 'Recommend a Colleague' scheme.

709
00:31:22,165 --> 00:31:23,645
I, I can't remember the exact numbers,

710
00:31:23,865 --> 00:31:26,725
but we paid kinda hundreds of pounds If somebody recommends,

711
00:31:26,745 --> 00:31:28,045
uh, recommends a colleague.

712
00:31:28,745 --> 00:31:31,285
Um, needless to say, Tom wanted a little bit more than that.

713
00:31:32,245 --> 00:31:34,685
I mean, everyone wins, but I wanna win some too.

714
00:31:35,605 --> 00:31:38,085
I heard that the amount is 500 pounds.

715
00:31:38,715 --> 00:31:41,405
Yeah, that sounds, uh, that sounds right to me. And

716
00:31:41,445 --> 00:31:45,125
I heard that Tom asked for a lot more than that.

717
00:31:45,715 --> 00:31:48,085
Yeah. I think I asked for two and a half.

718
00:31:48,995 --> 00:31:51,845
That is how I remember it as, uh, as well.

719
00:31:52,505 --> 00:31:53,805
Um, I got this, uh,

720
00:31:54,225 --> 00:31:57,965
I'm gonna say beautifully crafted email from, uh, from Tom.

721
00:31:58,635 --> 00:32:02,845
What would you say if, um, you know, I a found your person

722
00:32:03,185 --> 00:32:06,685
who I would stand behind, made sure they were kind

723
00:32:06,685 --> 00:32:10,445
of trained up and, and and ready to go and would mentor them

724
00:32:11,145 --> 00:32:13,245
and all you need to pay for this is two

725
00:32:13,245 --> 00:32:15,365
and half thousand pounds. Um,

726
00:32:15,825 --> 00:32:18,245
In comparison to how much you would pay a

727
00:32:18,275 --> 00:32:20,245
recruiter? Probably two, three times more.

728
00:32:20,965 --> 00:32:24,445
A absolutely yes. I missed out that crucial part.

729
00:32:24,515 --> 00:32:25,605
That was fun. Um,

730
00:32:26,625 --> 00:32:29,005
To, to Tom's point, it was a really easy decision.

731
00:32:29,745 --> 00:32:32,445
Um, we've got some, you know, we've got a scheme in place.

732
00:32:33,365 --> 00:32:35,085
Actually, he's given me a bit better than that

733
00:32:35,085 --> 00:32:37,285
because he already knows this person really well.

734
00:32:37,755 --> 00:32:38,765
He's gonna bring them in

735
00:32:39,105 --> 00:32:40,845
and he's gonna train and mentor them.

736
00:32:41,065 --> 00:32:44,245
So it is an easy decision for me to say, uh,

737
00:32:44,305 --> 00:32:45,525
for me to say yes to that.

738
00:32:45,985 --> 00:32:48,245
But you also gave him some advice after it, didn't you?

739
00:32:48,765 --> 00:32:51,205
I did tell him that I would've probably paid quite a lot

740
00:32:51,205 --> 00:32:53,365
more money for the same service that he'd provided.

741
00:32:53,825 --> 00:32:55,805
He also then offered me the fact

742
00:32:55,805 --> 00:32:57,925
that he would've accepted quite a lot less money

743
00:32:58,025 --> 00:32:59,805
for the service that was providing.

744
00:32:59,985 --> 00:33:04,005
So, um, I think we're both probably happy with where we, uh,

745
00:33:04,015 --> 00:33:05,925
where we settled and,

746
00:33:05,945 --> 00:33:07,565
and actually it was again, quite an,

747
00:33:07,745 --> 00:33:08,925
you know, feedback's a gift.

748
00:33:08,955 --> 00:33:11,285
It's quite an enlightening moment for us to be able to say,

749
00:33:11,655 --> 00:33:13,725
let's change that scheme that we've got in place.

750
00:33:14,085 --> 00:33:15,565
'cause we obviously would pay more.

751
00:33:16,135 --> 00:33:17,965
We've introduced a a, a new scheme

752
00:33:17,965 --> 00:33:19,325
where we do pay quite a lot more.

753
00:33:19,505 --> 00:33:21,525
And that's, that's credit to my employer.

754
00:33:21,845 --> 00:33:25,085
I mean, they saw that, I mean, I,

755
00:33:25,365 --> 00:33:30,005
I I guess I exploited kind of, um, the gap, that gap between

756
00:33:30,005 --> 00:33:31,485
what they were offering and what they normally pay

757
00:33:31,865 --> 00:33:33,045
and kind of came in the middle.

758
00:33:33,425 --> 00:33:36,405
But they saw that as an opportunity to, to go,

759
00:33:36,675 --> 00:33:38,045
well, why is Tom special?

760
00:33:38,195 --> 00:33:39,925
He's not, everyone can actually

761
00:33:39,925 --> 00:33:41,165
effectively do the same thing.

762
00:33:41,785 --> 00:33:43,045
And they made it company-wide.

763
00:33:43,105 --> 00:33:44,325
And, and I think that's one

764
00:33:44,325 --> 00:33:46,285
of the amazing things at Leighton is,

765
00:33:46,845 --> 00:33:48,445
I mean I didn't even give that as feedback.

766
00:33:48,645 --> 00:33:50,445
I just tried to get more money out of them,

767
00:33:50,445 --> 00:33:51,605
but they just went and said, oh,

768
00:33:51,805 --> 00:33:53,965
actually this is something we can improve on.

769
00:33:54,465 --> 00:33:57,365
Um, so credit to you and the senior, senior leadership team.

770
00:33:57,885 --> 00:33:59,605
I guess this is what I mean when I said earlier on

771
00:33:59,605 --> 00:34:02,445
that like, great people challenge you and make you better.

772
00:34:02,585 --> 00:34:05,925
That's, to me is a really good example of that.

773
00:34:06,385 --> 00:34:08,285
If Tom hadn't been prepared to challenge us,

774
00:34:08,285 --> 00:34:09,365
we wouldn't have made things

775
00:34:09,365 --> 00:34:11,125
better for the rest of the team. So

776
00:34:11,345 --> 00:34:13,245
How can you not be loyal to a company like that?

777
00:34:13,735 --> 00:34:15,125
Let's talk loyalty. Yeah,

778
00:34:15,125 --> 00:34:19,445
because you have, um, you have put a lot

779
00:34:19,445 --> 00:34:23,485
of requests onto the CEO of your company

780
00:34:24,185 --> 00:34:28,565
and every one of those will in many ways affect budgets.

781
00:34:28,905 --> 00:34:31,925
Yep. Um, if you are taking a little bit money out

782
00:34:31,925 --> 00:34:33,845
of the pot, somebody else

783
00:34:33,905 --> 00:34:36,605
or another faction might have less to spend and so on.

784
00:34:36,625 --> 00:34:38,525
It really does have that level of impact.

785
00:34:39,865 --> 00:34:43,165
How do you balance the business needs with those

786
00:34:43,585 --> 00:34:44,845
of employees?

787
00:34:45,315 --> 00:34:48,965
Because you can't say yes to everything, no matter

788
00:34:49,105 --> 00:34:51,045
how beautifully crafted the letter is.

789
00:34:51,985 --> 00:34:55,565
Um, yeah, it's a really good, it's a really good question.

790
00:34:56,465 --> 00:35:01,085
Um, I think my answer to that is, you know, broadly

791
00:35:01,665 --> 00:35:04,205
try and focus on what you know is the right thing to,

792
00:35:04,465 --> 00:35:05,525
is the right thing to do.

793
00:35:06,545 --> 00:35:10,125
Um, I I often kind of say that I want to,

794
00:35:10,325 --> 00:35:11,525
I want to win and buy that.

795
00:35:11,605 --> 00:35:14,165
I mean, I want to deliver the budget that was gonna set out

796
00:35:14,265 --> 00:35:15,285
to, to deliver.

797
00:35:15,905 --> 00:35:17,885
You know, I want to do better than that

798
00:35:17,885 --> 00:35:18,925
and get the pat on the back.

799
00:35:19,025 --> 00:35:20,445
We talked about acknowledgement earlier

800
00:35:20,445 --> 00:35:22,165
and that's important to, to me as well.

801
00:35:22,825 --> 00:35:24,765
Um, but it's not at all costs.

802
00:35:25,155 --> 00:35:28,085
Some, some things are worth kind of, you know, sacrificing

803
00:35:28,085 --> 00:35:29,805
that, uh, that goal for,

804
00:35:29,985 --> 00:35:31,885
and you know, really broadly,

805
00:35:32,065 --> 00:35:35,805
if you employ some really great people, if you empower them

806
00:35:35,865 --> 00:35:39,045
to, to do really great work, they will deliver

807
00:35:39,305 --> 00:35:42,485
for the customer far better than the average people

808
00:35:42,485 --> 00:35:43,765
delivering average work.

809
00:35:44,305 --> 00:35:46,365
And I guess what I'm banking on is that

810
00:35:46,365 --> 00:35:48,205
that money comes back in a different way,

811
00:35:48,205 --> 00:35:49,245
further down the line.

812
00:35:49,425 --> 00:35:51,965
So, you know, we are able to, you know, do another project

813
00:35:51,985 --> 00:35:54,485
for the customer that we maybe hadn't budgeted on doing.

814
00:35:55,145 --> 00:35:57,565
And that's where it, you know, it will get back to us.

815
00:35:58,025 --> 00:35:59,845
And I, I, I would guess that by

816
00:35:59,845 --> 00:36:02,805
and large, throughout my career, we've had some years

817
00:36:02,805 --> 00:36:03,845
where we've been a bit up

818
00:36:03,845 --> 00:36:06,525
and we've had some years where we've been a bit down, but by

819
00:36:06,525 --> 00:36:07,965
and large we'll have ended in the right place.

820
00:36:08,615 --> 00:36:10,045
Let's end on work culture.

821
00:36:10,625 --> 00:36:13,685
Um, any red flags for you?

822
00:36:13,845 --> 00:36:16,325
I would say as an employee past experience,

823
00:36:16,325 --> 00:36:19,005
looking at businesses and do's

824
00:36:19,005 --> 00:36:22,525
and don'ts, so from your own experience running a company

825
00:36:22,665 --> 00:36:26,165
or maybe from looking at your peers, things that you think

826
00:36:26,165 --> 00:36:30,765
that is a brilliantly working and tested idea

827
00:36:31,625 --> 00:36:33,405
At the end of the day, I'm, I'm heard

828
00:36:33,825 --> 00:36:36,325
and I think, uh, that's something

829
00:36:36,555 --> 00:36:38,605
that not every employer can say that they do

830
00:36:38,745 --> 00:36:39,965
and really listen.

831
00:36:40,425 --> 00:36:43,925
And, uh, I think with all the, um,

832
00:36:44,685 --> 00:36:49,005
challenges I put forth, uh, Leighton warrant unreasonable,

833
00:36:49,355 --> 00:36:52,285
most of them, uh, uh,

834
00:36:52,665 --> 00:36:55,325
and I've made sure they were reasonable most of the time.

835
00:36:55,945 --> 00:36:58,405
Uh, and so, and they've met me.

836
00:36:58,625 --> 00:37:00,925
And so I feel like I was respected

837
00:37:00,925 --> 00:37:04,365
and I wasn't just said, told no for the sake of saying no

838
00:37:04,505 --> 00:37:06,925
or for the sake of parity or things like that.

839
00:37:07,825 --> 00:37:09,445
And correct me if I'm wrong,

840
00:37:09,465 --> 00:37:12,925
but Leighton is actually, uh, really high up there

841
00:37:12,925 --> 00:37:15,005
with retaining their employees. Yeah.

842
00:37:15,025 --> 00:37:18,605
We like, our attrition rate is, is basically 10%

843
00:37:18,745 --> 00:37:20,605
and I think kinda current averages

844
00:37:20,605 --> 00:37:22,805
or something like 20 to to 30%.

845
00:37:23,005 --> 00:37:25,765
I think at the time I quoted 15% and I was wrong.

846
00:37:25,915 --> 00:37:28,005
It's actually higher than that. Higher than that.

847
00:37:28,625 --> 00:37:30,085
Um, and I think, you know, hopefully

848
00:37:30,085 --> 00:37:31,925
that is partly to do with the culture that we,

849
00:37:32,245 --> 00:37:33,565
And that yeah, that speaks volumes.

850
00:37:33,565 --> 00:37:35,645
People wanna stay and, um,

851
00:37:36,035 --> 00:37:37,925
There's probably a load of different ways

852
00:37:37,925 --> 00:37:41,045
that you could do good culture listening to kind of Tom,

853
00:37:41,565 --> 00:37:43,805
I actually think maybe what a good culture looks like is,

854
00:37:44,385 --> 00:37:46,845
you know, being clear on your expectations

855
00:37:47,185 --> 00:37:49,245
and delivering on your expectations.

856
00:37:49,505 --> 00:37:52,565
So I think we've probably been clear to Tom that, you know,

857
00:37:52,565 --> 00:37:55,165
we talk about our curiosity inspiring the amazing,

858
00:37:55,305 --> 00:37:58,525
and we talk about that meaning lots of questions such

859
00:37:58,525 --> 00:38:01,125
as we've set an expectation for Tom that we want questions,

860
00:38:01,145 --> 00:38:02,205
we want kind of challenge.

861
00:38:03,145 --> 00:38:05,805
But having set that expectation, we absolutely have

862
00:38:05,805 --> 00:38:08,205
to deliver on it for then Tom to kind of buy in

863
00:38:08,205 --> 00:38:09,325
and, and trust us.

864
00:38:09,945 --> 00:38:11,205
But somebody else could have a culture

865
00:38:11,205 --> 00:38:13,165
where questions are not encouraged

866
00:38:13,165 --> 00:38:14,365
and that's fine as long as they're

867
00:38:14,365 --> 00:38:15,445
clear on that at the start.

868
00:38:15,585 --> 00:38:18,525
And therefore they attract people who don't want to ask lots

869
00:38:18,525 --> 00:38:20,325
of questions and don't want to, to challenge.

870
00:38:20,985 --> 00:38:23,205
Um, and maybe it works at late and

871
00:38:23,365 --> 00:38:24,725
'cause we're clear on what we expect.

872
00:38:24,945 --> 00:38:26,565
People come in expecting that

873
00:38:26,565 --> 00:38:28,205
and then we're able to deliver on it.

874
00:38:29,665 --> 00:38:32,085
Did you tell Tom to expect that the weather would be good?!

875
00:38:32,465 --> 00:38:33,885
Um, if he came to Newcastle?

876
00:38:34,245 --> 00:38:37,845
I did not tell him that. So no, I never told me that he,

877
00:38:37,865 --> 00:38:39,085
he didn't ask those questions.

878
00:38:39,145 --> 00:38:40,925
He didn't qualify the opportunity.

879
00:38:41,655 --> 00:38:43,125
We've got this beautiful view

880
00:38:43,745 --> 00:38:46,165
and we can't see anything at all!

881
00:38:46,395 --> 00:38:47,765
It's just torrential rain.

882
00:38:47,905 --> 00:38:49,605
It is miserable today

883
00:38:49,625 --> 00:38:51,445
and probably is miserable most of the time.

884
00:38:51,585 --> 00:38:53,125
You come to Newcastle. You'll add it in post

885
00:38:53,145 --> 00:38:54,145
Though, right?

886
00:38:54,235 --> 00:38:56,485
Yeah, we'll just, oh, it's all gonna look fabulous.

887
00:38:56,495 --> 00:38:57,495
Don't worry.

888
00:38:58,065 --> 00:39:01,365
Thanks guys, for being so frank

889
00:39:01,795 --> 00:39:04,405
with our discussion today, James Bunting

890
00:39:04,665 --> 00:39:06,405
and Tom Shanan of Leighton.

891
00:39:07,065 --> 00:39:08,405
Now together you've

892
00:39:08,565 --> 00:39:12,445
provided the evidence for the phrase 'shy bairns get nowt.' I dunno

893
00:39:12,445 --> 00:39:15,565
about you, but my mind is blown on how best

894
00:39:15,565 --> 00:39:19,325
to negotiate a better salary, perks, and workload.

895
00:39:20,425 --> 00:39:23,325
The key is knowing your value to that business

896
00:39:23,905 --> 00:39:26,685
at the same time, not having a pushover as a boss,

897
00:39:26,865 --> 00:39:30,845
but someone who has clear boundaries, who really listens

898
00:39:30,845 --> 00:39:34,685
to their staff and acts on it, changing policies

899
00:39:34,945 --> 00:39:36,325
and showing appreciation

900
00:39:36,385 --> 00:39:39,045
for building a loyal, talented team.

901
00:39:39,985 --> 00:39:41,245
And that benefits everyone.

902
00:39:42,145 --> 00:39:44,805
So however, and wherever you are listening

903
00:39:44,805 --> 00:39:47,125
or watching Both Sides of the Desk, thank you.

904
00:39:47,635 --> 00:39:49,245
This is all about sharing ideas

905
00:39:49,345 --> 00:39:52,245
to create a more positive work culture for everyone.

906
00:39:52,545 --> 00:39:54,005
So please subscribe to the podcast

907
00:39:54,265 --> 00:39:56,045
and share it with your friends and colleagues.

908
00:39:56,755 --> 00:40:00,005
Data shows that positive work culture boost productivity

909
00:40:00,635 --> 00:40:03,405
reduces staff turnover and makes people happier.

910
00:40:03,865 --> 00:40:05,885
What's not to love? Well, we'd love you

911
00:40:05,985 --> 00:40:07,405
to join the conversation too.

912
00:40:07,915 --> 00:40:10,685
Drop us a message on the socials for Newcastle Helix,

913
00:40:10,685 --> 00:40:13,765
whether that's LinkedIn, X, Facebook, Instagram,

914
00:40:13,985 --> 00:40:15,245
or the YouTube channel.

915
00:40:15,865 --> 00:40:17,885
We are all about collaboration here.

916
00:40:18,025 --> 00:40:20,925
So on that note, this video podcast was filmed with the help

917
00:40:20,925 --> 00:40:23,485
of the incredible team at the Lumen Building on the

918
00:40:23,485 --> 00:40:25,285
Newcastle Helix site.

919
00:40:25,545 --> 00:40:28,965
It was filmed and directed by Chris Taylor, filmed

920
00:40:28,965 --> 00:40:31,365
and edited by Jordan McDonald, mixed

921
00:40:31,365 --> 00:40:34,365
and mastered by Andy at Blast Studios and produced

922
00:40:34,385 --> 00:40:36,645
and presented by me, Charlie Charlton.

923
00:40:36,945 --> 00:40:39,405
The concept emerged in collaboration

924
00:40:39,405 --> 00:40:41,365
with Di Gates of Connection Heroes.

925
00:40:41,595 --> 00:40:44,285
This is a development program all about the value

926
00:40:44,545 --> 00:40:46,565
of human connection at work.

927
00:40:47,065 --> 00:40:49,885
So coming up in the next episode of Both Sides of the Desk:

928
00:40:50,475 --> 00:40:51,725
There's the connections element

929
00:40:51,945 --> 00:40:54,245
and there's also a certain amount of polish

930
00:40:54,475 --> 00:40:56,805
that you get trained into you more

931
00:40:57,675 --> 00:41:00,005
From the happy team here at Newcastle Helix.

932
00:41:00,425 --> 00:41:01,125
See you next time.