Both Sides of the Desk - Episode 1: Mesma

Both Sides of the Desk. One boss. One employee. Talk work culture.

In this episode, host Charlie Charlton is caught between CEO Louise (Lou) Doyle and Marketing Manager Sally Forsyth of Mesma. They deliver UK-wide quality assurance technology and consultancy to the education and employability sectors.

When it comes to recruitment and retention, they feel there's one looming issue that needs raising: 'parentcare'. With an ageing population comes the impact  of recruiting and retaining men and women who juggle jobs with caring for elderly relatives. This opens up a challenging conversation about flexibility, security and the risk of burnout. 

Lou is co-founder of Mesma with Carole Loader and have a female-dominated workforce. As an SME, Lou’s used her experience in the corporate world to implement a four-day week policy; hybrid and remote working; flexible work hours; maintaining an apprentice-first recruitment strategy.

Sally's energy and drive is obvious. She wants to dive into creatively satisfying projects at work but feels the frustration of not being able to 'have it all'. Sally balances her job with huge responsibilities at home, caring for family young and old. 

The line between work and home is now so blurred, so what can a business do to support, keep and get the best out of talented people? Find out with Charlie, Lou and Sally.

CREDITS:

• In conversation: Louise (Lou) Doyle, Co-founder and CEO of Mesma, and Sally Forsyth, Marketing Manager of Mesma
• Producer/Presenter/Editor: Charlie Charlton
• Camera/Director: Chris Taylor
• Camera/Editor: Jordan McDonald
• Sound Producer: Andy Bell, Blast Studios
• Social Producer: Natalie Eminae, OCOCO Media
• Exec Producers: Newcastle Helix Partnership + John Seager

In collaboration with Di Gates, Connection Heroes
Filmed on location in The Lumen Building, Newcastle Helix
Big thanks to the whole community of the Helix Innovation District in Newcastle-upon-Tyne, England.

See Charlie Charlton and her guests in action: https://www.youtube.com/@newcastlehelix2403

FURTHER READING:

• https://www.bps.org.uk/research-digest/women-bear-brunt-unpaid-labour-and-it-may-be-affecting-their-mental-health
• https://www.cipd.org/uk/knowledge/reports/four-day-week/
• https://www.software.com/reports/future-of-work
• https://www.gov.uk/employing-an-apprentice

Connect with Newcastle Helix:

• Website: https://www.newcastlehelix.com/
• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/newcastle-helix/
• X: https://x.com/newcastlehelix
• Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/newcastlehelix/
• Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/newcastlehelix/
• Email: info@newcastlehelix.com

Thanks for listening to Both Sides of the Desk. Don't forget to subscribe, rate, and join the conversation!

Chapters

• 0:00 Intro: Charlie Charlton is caught between Both Sides of the Desk.
• 0:44 The Ageing Elephant in the Room: As the UK population ages, so do the workforce and their families. Mesma’s Marketing Manager Sally is responsible for both parental care and childcare.
• 3:10 Female-dominated SMEs: Mesma’s co-founder Lou Doyle has a small team, mostly made up of women. They’ve worked together to deal with breast cancer, divorce, parental care, and childcare issues.
• 4:21 Flexibility is key to success: Lou and Sally discuss this as an advantage of working for an SME over a larger business, but you need to seriously consider how to avoid burnout.
• 6:08 Recruiting Women - The New Age: The narrative has moved from maternity to menopause to parental care. Lou says you have to consider how to recruit without bias and support this talent pool.
• 8:06 The Juggle is real: Things get emotional for Sally, Lou and Charlie as they discuss ‘having it all.’
• 9:31 “This conversation irritates me”: Sally says the topic of work and life balance isn’t just for women, but for everyone. However, she feels it’s not for the business to fix.
• 10:36 "Control the Controllables": Lou notes they can ‘control’ some factors through flexibility, hybrid working and workload expectations.
• 11:28 “Where can we let the gold standard go?”: Lou wonders about the impact of dropping standards on preserving mental health and retention, even as a quality control business.
• 11:45 When Life Feels Unfair: Sally expresses frustration with the sad truth of “you can’t have it all” when it comes to a workforce in middle age.
• 12:35 What role can and should an employer play?: Sally feels there’s only so much an employer can do, and much of what faces her and other people in her position do is systematic.
• 14:26 “You’re nuts if you don’t build flexibility in”: Lou discusses ways to help employees in caring roles- flexibility for school runs, doctor appointments and phone calls; allowing hybrid working; temporarily reducing hours; sabbaticals.
• 16:17 The one we haven’t fixed yet: Lou ponders on workload expectations for Mesma’s people.
• 17:48 That Special Relationship with SMEs: Client relationships are integral to SMEs, particularly for Mesma. In one way, this is positive, but in another, it’s their “Achilles heel.”
• 19:13 How can SMEs scale up and keep it personal?: Lou and Sally discuss how to maintain core values as you grow.
• 21:09 Community - In or out?: There’s an organic nature to this client relationship - it can’t be forced, and it’s not for everyone. Even without being a part of a community.
• 21:48 AI - Help or hindrance?: As a software provider, Lou thinks you need to remember that clients can feel that human touch in every communication they receive.
• 22:40 "Values Can Be Dangerous": Lou says half of Mesma’s team were recruited as apprentices, as this is integral to their CSR values - but it brings with it risks a “tsunami of workload” for the rest of the team.
• 25:26 The benefit of walking the talk of CSR: Sally discusses the pros and cons of taking on apprentices (young and old), kick-starters, T-level placements, and internships.
• 26:16 The ROI of training: Lou insists apprenticeships are worth every penny.
• 27:59 Committed to the 4-Day Week: SMEs like Mesma compete for top talent with large organisations. They struggle to meet the salaries of software developers, for example, but they can offer benefits like a four-day week and hybrid working.
• 30:42 Putting the Realities into Real Estate: Mesma is based in The Core building on the Newcastle Helix site. Lou and Sally discuss the need for face-to-face working and collaboration for certain job roles and work placements.
• 33:44 Reversing an Office Mandate: Lou admits she and her business partner, Carol Loader tried this and then changed their policy. Sally discusses this from her previous role in HR.
• 36:05 Green Lights and Red Flags of Good Work Culture: Lou and Sally discuss what to look out for in terms of policy, values and experience.
• 38:20 Wrap-up from Charlie Charlton.

Transcript

 1
00:00:00,945 --> 00:00:03,365
Hi, welcome to Both Sides of the Desk.

2
00:00:03,945 --> 00:00:04,965
I'm Charlie Charlton,

3
00:00:05,105 --> 00:00:08,045
and each week we have one boss, one employee

4
00:00:08,385 --> 00:00:09,685
to talk work culture.

5
00:00:10,425 --> 00:00:12,405
Why? Well as a journalist, I host a lot

6
00:00:12,405 --> 00:00:14,725
of business conferences, and it is the one

7
00:00:14,725 --> 00:00:16,125
subject that always comes up.

8
00:00:16,545 --> 00:00:20,525
How do we create and keep happy high performing teams?

9
00:00:21,185 --> 00:00:25,005
So to give the honest, sometimes emotional, answers to that,

10
00:00:25,185 --> 00:00:28,685
we have Mesma. They're experts in quality assurance

11
00:00:28,745 --> 00:00:32,005
and improvement for the education and employability sectors,

12
00:00:32,145 --> 00:00:34,205
and they're based here at Newcastle Helix.

13
00:00:34,785 --> 00:00:37,285
On one side of the desk, we have Mesma's co-founder

14
00:00:37,425 --> 00:00:39,805
and CEO Louise (Lou) Doyle.

15
00:00:40,185 --> 00:00:42,725
And on the other side of the desk we have Mesma's Marketing

16
00:00:42,725 --> 00:00:44,285
Manager, Sally Forsyth.

17
00:00:44,835 --> 00:00:47,205
When we talk about female dominated workplaces,

18
00:00:47,535 --> 00:00:51,565
inevitably childcare is the thing that comes up first,

19
00:00:52,865 --> 00:00:56,045
but you feel that there's a whole other, perhaps bigger,

20
00:00:57,345 --> 00:01:00,325
longer-lasting consideration that needs to be made? Yeah,

21
00:01:01,045 --> 00:01:02,045
I really do. I mean, I think

22
00:01:02,045 --> 00:01:03,685
that it's something that, I think that

23
00:01:05,115 --> 00:01:06,285
it's a political issue,

24
00:01:06,285 --> 00:01:09,485
and I'm trying not to go down a political route route

25
00:01:09,485 --> 00:01:12,725
with it, but I think a lot of people who are maybe my age

26
00:01:12,785 --> 00:01:14,005
or a little bit older than me,

27
00:01:14,105 --> 00:01:17,885
so I'm in my early forties- just, still.

28
00:01:18,065 --> 00:01:21,205
So, um, I think that a lot of us in,

29
00:01:21,545 --> 00:01:26,365
in this age bracket are experiencing the other side of care

30
00:01:26,385 --> 00:01:28,925
and responsibility, so that comes down to parental care.

31
00:01:29,105 --> 00:01:33,045
So I think that, um, I'm in a situation where, um,

32
00:01:33,145 --> 00:01:36,965
my mum has recently needed more support from us as a family.

33
00:01:37,505 --> 00:01:39,765
Um, and I am, I've done that thing where I've moved

34
00:01:39,905 --> 00:01:42,325
to university and then ended up living in the place

35
00:01:42,325 --> 00:01:43,405
that I went to university.

36
00:01:44,105 --> 00:01:47,685
So I've left my family behind, and it's me looking

37
00:01:47,685 --> 00:01:49,285
after my mom who followed me up.

38
00:01:49,985 --> 00:01:52,245
So that's, and I think that, I think

39
00:01:52,245 --> 00:01:54,245
that there's a massive recognition of that,

40
00:01:54,345 --> 00:01:55,605
but I don't think anyone's come up

41
00:01:55,605 --> 00:01:57,405
with a sensible solution to that at the moment.

42
00:01:57,545 --> 00:01:59,845
And I think that that's hard for the people

43
00:01:59,845 --> 00:02:01,045
that are experiencing it.

44
00:02:01,065 --> 00:02:03,525
And I think it's really hard for businesses

45
00:02:03,545 --> 00:02:04,565
and in particular smaller

46
00:02:04,845 --> 00:02:06,525
businesses to deal with that as well. Do

47
00:02:06,525 --> 00:02:09,325
You mind me asking why your mum needs more care?

48
00:02:09,705 --> 00:02:10,965
My mum has Alzheimer's

49
00:02:11,005 --> 00:02:13,285
and she's recently been diagnosed with Alzheimer's.

50
00:02:13,625 --> 00:02:15,565
So what impact does that have on you on

51
00:02:15,685 --> 00:02:17,005
a day-to-Day basis?

52
00:02:18,465 --> 00:02:21,605
Um, well, it, it has an impact on us

53
00:02:21,605 --> 00:02:23,645
because I have to support my mum

54
00:02:23,755 --> 00:02:25,725
with, um, remembering things.

55
00:02:25,885 --> 00:02:26,885
I have to support my mum.

56
00:02:26,885 --> 00:02:29,245
My mum lives with us, or we live with my mum,

57
00:02:29,405 --> 00:02:31,085
depending upon where we're up to.

58
00:02:31,865 --> 00:02:35,925
Um, we've also got two children who are, um, 9 and 12.

59
00:02:36,465 --> 00:02:39,285
So we've got caring responsibilities on both sides.

60
00:02:39,905 --> 00:02:41,605
Um, and like I said, there's only me and my husband,

61
00:02:42,065 --> 00:02:46,165
and it requires an awful lot of logistical movement, um,

62
00:02:46,185 --> 00:02:48,485
and consideration and planning, forward planning

63
00:02:48,825 --> 00:02:50,885
and the support system, isn't there.

64
00:02:51,455 --> 00:02:53,485
There are two elements there.

65
00:02:53,945 --> 00:02:58,765
One, which is an older population and an older workforce,

66
00:02:59,265 --> 00:03:01,925
and increasingly people in Sally's position

67
00:03:01,925 --> 00:03:02,965
of being sandwiched.

68
00:03:03,545 --> 00:03:05,765
Um, have you come across this before

69
00:03:05,785 --> 00:03:08,165
or is this something that you are very aware of?

70
00:03:08,825 --> 00:03:11,205
Uh, when I've worked in corporate, so if I kind of put

71
00:03:11,205 --> 00:03:13,165
that hat on of being in a corporate world

72
00:03:13,425 --> 00:03:15,045
and may, maybe it's a sign of the times

73
00:03:15,105 --> 00:03:16,245
as well about our willingness

74
00:03:16,625 --> 00:03:19,445
and our interest in people as people when they work

75
00:03:19,445 --> 00:03:22,765
with you, that you're not just a number in a corporate.

76
00:03:22,785 --> 00:03:27,605
But there was definitely, for me, a line between your

77
00:03:28,275 --> 00:03:30,805
work and your home life that yes,

78
00:03:30,805 --> 00:03:32,285
you knew things about each other,

79
00:03:32,665 --> 00:03:35,205
but not to the extent that that's amplified.

80
00:03:35,585 --> 00:03:37,325
And I, I think that is a sign of the times,

81
00:03:37,425 --> 00:03:38,885
but also in a small business

82
00:03:39,115 --> 00:03:40,845
because you know the person,

83
00:03:41,545 --> 00:03:43,885
you don't just know the person at work.

84
00:03:44,505 --> 00:03:47,645
Um, and, and that's probably the thing that has become more

85
00:03:47,645 --> 00:03:49,445
and more apparent over the last couple of years.

86
00:03:49,745 --> 00:03:51,285
But I was kind of adding up, you know,

87
00:03:51,285 --> 00:03:54,605
if you look at Mesma over the last couple of years. In a team

88
00:03:54,605 --> 00:03:58,125
of less than 10, we have had a cancer diagnosis,

89
00:03:58,125 --> 00:04:00,445
we've had death of a parent, we've had divorce,

90
00:04:00,815 --> 00:04:02,525
we've had mental health difficulties,

91
00:04:02,525 --> 00:04:05,445
we've had Sally's really challenging situation.

92
00:04:05,885 --> 00:04:07,045
I could go on with others

93
00:04:07,075 --> 00:04:08,805
that have affected people in our team.

94
00:04:09,385 --> 00:04:10,605
So you are never dealing

95
00:04:10,605 --> 00:04:13,605
with just one person's life and scenario.

96
00:04:13,665 --> 00:04:16,565
You've got all of them going on at the same time and,

97
00:04:16,585 --> 00:04:18,605
and trying to make that work.

98
00:04:19,305 --> 00:04:22,245
It is challenging, you know, there's no two ways about it.

99
00:04:22,405 --> 00:04:24,205
I think what you can do as a small business,

100
00:04:24,205 --> 00:04:26,885
or certainly we do, and I know many others do the same.

101
00:04:27,345 --> 00:04:29,605
We have the flexibility to say,

102
00:04:29,625 --> 00:04:31,005
you work when you need to work.

103
00:04:31,105 --> 00:04:32,805
You know, if you wanna work it till midnight

104
00:04:32,805 --> 00:04:34,645
and not during the day, that that's what we'll do.

105
00:04:34,985 --> 00:04:38,965
You're not constrained by HR policy process

106
00:04:39,075 --> 00:04:40,405
that understandably have

107
00:04:40,405 --> 00:04:42,725
to be in place in a bigger organisation.

108
00:04:43,145 --> 00:04:45,605
So I think it gives us that element of flexibility.

109
00:04:45,845 --> 00:04:47,325
Sally, you know, may have a different view on that,

110
00:04:47,325 --> 00:04:49,045
so it'd be good to hear Sally's take on that.

111
00:04:49,545 --> 00:04:53,045
Um, that allows us to manoeuver around it in a different way.

112
00:04:53,115 --> 00:04:56,845
However, it creates a bigger risk of burnout.

113
00:04:57,385 --> 00:04:59,245
That's the thing that keeps me awake at night,

114
00:04:59,305 --> 00:05:02,845
my own burnout, my team's burnout, Carole's burnout- about

115
00:05:02,985 --> 00:05:06,885
how do you not just protect the person from the work

116
00:05:06,885 --> 00:05:09,485
that you are all trying to do to make Mesma successful,

117
00:05:09,825 --> 00:05:12,805
but actually protect them as well as much as you can

118
00:05:12,825 --> 00:05:13,965
and as much as they want you to

119
00:05:14,475 --> 00:05:17,325
from what's going on in their life outside of work as well.

120
00:05:18,045 --> 00:05:20,685
I think that if you're going to do a contrast

121
00:05:20,685 --> 00:05:22,285
between a corporate environment,

122
00:05:22,285 --> 00:05:23,925
and I've also worked in larger organisations

123
00:05:23,925 --> 00:05:27,525
before I work for a small business, I think there's more

124
00:05:28,075 --> 00:05:30,765
flexibility in managing roles and responsibilities.

125
00:05:31,385 --> 00:05:33,125
Um, I think it's much harder.

126
00:05:33,125 --> 00:05:35,045
There's no one there to pick up slack. Yeah.

127
00:05:35,265 --> 00:05:38,285
If you, if you are in a small business, so you have,

128
00:05:38,385 --> 00:05:41,005
if you've got a work ethic, like I've got a work ethic,

129
00:05:41,105 --> 00:05:42,845
you know that this is your job, you wanna,

130
00:05:42,945 --> 00:05:44,525
and sometimes it's harder to just

131
00:05:45,425 --> 00:05:47,165
let things go a a little bit

132
00:05:47,165 --> 00:05:49,205
because you feels like you are losing

133
00:05:50,555 --> 00:05:52,085
grip on your job a little bit,

134
00:05:52,085 --> 00:05:53,205
and you don't wanna, you don't wanna

135
00:05:53,205 --> 00:05:54,725
feel, you don't want to do that. So,

136
00:05:55,065 --> 00:05:58,165
You know, what I'm hearing, hearing from from Sally

137
00:05:59,265 --> 00:06:04,125
is it feels like a very typical sad story

138
00:06:04,685 --> 00:06:08,085
actually for a lot of women that all the data

139
00:06:08,675 --> 00:06:11,805
says it's still the women who were the primary caregivers,

140
00:06:11,805 --> 00:06:13,565
whether that's to their children or whether that's

141
00:06:13,565 --> 00:06:15,445
to their parents or their loved one,

142
00:06:15,445 --> 00:06:17,165
or their friends rather than men.

143
00:06:17,545 --> 00:06:19,925
So if you are working in a world where you

144
00:06:20,595 --> 00:06:24,525
have predominantly employed women, your business is going

145
00:06:24,525 --> 00:06:29,445
to be more impacted whether the political situation changes

146
00:06:29,585 --> 00:06:33,685
or not, because that's, that's the narrative.

147
00:06:34,425 --> 00:06:36,805
That's the story. Yeah. Yeah.

148
00:06:36,905 --> 00:06:41,765
So do you then look to recruit women if this is going

149
00:06:41,785 --> 00:06:43,445
to be the challenge you're gonna be faced

150
00:06:43,445 --> 00:06:44,445
With? I think you make a

151
00:06:44,445 --> 00:06:45,285
really interesting

152
00:06:45,305 --> 00:06:48,525
and challenging point, which is, um, you, we kind

153
00:06:48,525 --> 00:06:51,965
of think we've gone past those years of, um, it became a bit

154
00:06:51,965 --> 00:06:54,765
of a joke, didn't it, of not recruiting women who might be

155
00:06:54,765 --> 00:06:55,965
of childbearing age.

156
00:06:56,465 --> 00:06:58,965
Um, you know, whether that was overt or not,

157
00:06:59,155 --> 00:07:01,725
because of the risk of them going off on maternity

158
00:07:01,785 --> 00:07:04,125
and then having responsibilities for young children.

159
00:07:04,625 --> 00:07:06,325
And, and that doesn't, you know,

160
00:07:06,355 --> 00:07:08,085
feed the conversation as much now.

161
00:07:08,465 --> 00:07:10,965
But equally, this, this version of

162
00:07:11,585 --> 00:07:13,325
us being fitter in our middle years,

163
00:07:13,785 --> 00:07:16,885
our parents living longer, whilst all the research is there

164
00:07:16,885 --> 00:07:19,085
that supports that, what we aren't doing is, is having

165
00:07:19,115 --> 00:07:20,645
that conversation openly

166
00:07:20,645 --> 00:07:23,365
around this is more likely to fall to the women.

167
00:07:23,745 --> 00:07:26,085
So, so therefore how do we,

168
00:07:26,085 --> 00:07:29,485
and let's add in the fact it's menopause era as well.

169
00:07:29,825 --> 00:07:31,725
So you've got all of these whammies

170
00:07:31,745 --> 00:07:33,805
of probably having children later in life.

171
00:07:33,825 --> 00:07:36,325
So our children are still school age and younger.

172
00:07:36,625 --> 00:07:38,845
You've got parents who have to be looked after

173
00:07:39,345 --> 00:07:41,125
and your own personal scenario

174
00:07:41,145 --> 00:07:42,485
that's going on in the middle of that.

175
00:07:42,865 --> 00:07:44,445
And it's good to see that those changes

176
00:07:44,545 --> 00:07:46,325
and those conversations are getting

177
00:07:46,325 --> 00:07:48,005
better and there's more there.

178
00:07:48,345 --> 00:07:52,205
But I think Sally's spot on the conversation about how do we

179
00:07:52,795 --> 00:07:56,485
support staff recruit without bias, um,

180
00:07:56,865 --> 00:07:59,925
and then support staff to be able to navigate that needs,

181
00:08:00,225 --> 00:08:04,045
uh, at, for us in Mesma more thought and more consideration.

182
00:08:04,585 --> 00:08:06,325
Um, but it's not just about us, you know,

183
00:08:06,635 --> 00:08:08,765
Charlie, you've used the phrase before when you said you

184
00:08:08,825 --> 00:08:10,205
and, and not in this conversation,

185
00:08:10,225 --> 00:08:11,605
but you've said you can't have everything.

186
00:08:11,825 --> 00:08:14,805
You can't have it all, and you're kind of expected to.

187
00:08:16,025 --> 00:08:19,205
Um, and and that's where it gets hard.

188
00:08:19,405 --> 00:08:20,685
'cause you think, well, why can't I?

189
00:08:22,905 --> 00:08:26,005
You're frustrated. Yeah, yeah. Very,

190
00:08:26,435 --> 00:08:27,525
Because you're ambitious.

191
00:08:28,145 --> 00:08:30,365
You're talented. You've just been told now

192
00:08:30,365 --> 00:08:32,085
that your job is entirely secure.

193
00:08:32,825 --> 00:08:36,445
And yet I'm sure there's something at the back of your mind,

194
00:08:37,105 --> 00:08:38,645
can I sustain this?

195
00:08:40,065 --> 00:08:43,445
Can I sustain this pressure of looking after my mum, looking

196
00:08:43,445 --> 00:08:47,565
after the children, pushing on at work, taking on new

197
00:08:47,565 --> 00:08:50,205
and exciting projects that you actually want to do?

198
00:08:50,305 --> 00:08:52,685
Mm-Hmm. Because that's your work culture. Yeah.

199
00:08:52,755 --> 00:08:54,045
Your work culture isn't

200
00:08:54,205 --> 00:08:55,205
Settling. No, never.

201
00:08:55,205 --> 00:08:56,685
We don't know what that like

202
00:08:56,685 --> 00:08:58,765
It's pushing player and, um,

203
00:08:59,265 --> 00:09:00,565
I'm not meaning to upset you both.

204
00:09:00,665 --> 00:09:02,165
No. I just get upset when she gets

205
00:09:02,295 --> 00:09:04,525
Upset Because, because I know what she's having

206
00:09:04,665 --> 00:09:05,665
Too. That is it, isn't

207
00:09:05,665 --> 00:09:05,885
it?

208
00:09:06,305 --> 00:09:09,565
So what can an employer do in that sense?

209
00:09:10,025 --> 00:09:13,645
Is there anything apart from the arm around the shoulders

210
00:09:13,645 --> 00:09:15,445
and saying, you're doing a great job,

211
00:09:15,585 --> 00:09:17,245
But in some ways you don't wanna be

212
00:09:17,465 --> 00:09:18,685
pitied. So this is the other thing.

213
00:09:19,015 --> 00:09:20,125
Would that feel like pity?

214
00:09:20,475 --> 00:09:22,605
Yeah, because I'm, because just

215
00:09:22,705 --> 00:09:24,325
Not understanding In some ways.

216
00:09:24,325 --> 00:09:25,605
Yeah. But in some ways, no,

217
00:09:25,605 --> 00:09:27,725
because you know, I've, we've been to these,

218
00:09:27,775 --> 00:09:30,245
we've had this con so there's a, there's an also a thing.

219
00:09:31,225 --> 00:09:33,805
In some ways this conversation irritates me

220
00:09:34,715 --> 00:09:38,045
because we're only having it because we're women

221
00:09:38,985 --> 00:09:40,045
and it irritates me

222
00:09:40,045 --> 00:09:43,325
because I am, it's that separation of work and home.

223
00:09:43,785 --> 00:09:46,565
And actually I've not worked for the last,

224
00:09:46,675 --> 00:09:49,005
I've given up enough, you know?

225
00:09:49,625 --> 00:09:51,245
And, but it's that thing of

226
00:09:53,685 --> 00:09:55,085
I don't wanna give up the other things.

227
00:09:55,465 --> 00:09:59,405
So I can't, I can't be a mum and run

228
00:09:59,545 --> 00:10:02,645
and, you know, run a, be head of marketing

229
00:10:02,865 --> 00:10:06,365
and be a full-time carer and bake cakes

230
00:10:06,385 --> 00:10:09,525
and do three mile bike rides on a weekend

231
00:10:09,625 --> 00:10:10,805
and have a springer spaniel.

232
00:10:10,925 --> 00:10:12,325
I can't do all those things 'cause there just

233
00:10:12,325 --> 00:10:13,445
aren't hours in the day.

234
00:10:14,445 --> 00:10:15,605
I said to you, didn't I, we don't,

235
00:10:15,605 --> 00:10:16,765
we don't really wanna have conversations

236
00:10:16,765 --> 00:10:17,845
about the menopause.

237
00:10:17,905 --> 00:10:19,965
We don't really wanna have conversations about those things.

238
00:10:20,025 --> 00:10:22,045
And it's, and it's not 'cause I'm playing them down

239
00:10:22,625 --> 00:10:24,885
or I'm not, because I don't, I don't think we need

240
00:10:24,885 --> 00:10:26,045
to have those conversations,

241
00:10:26,465 --> 00:10:28,045
but we need to have them with men.

242
00:10:28,465 --> 00:10:30,645
We need to have men sit around the table talking to,

243
00:10:30,645 --> 00:10:34,205
because they share 50% of the responsibility for care for,

244
00:10:34,305 --> 00:10:35,885
for older people and for children.

245
00:10:36,275 --> 00:10:37,925
There's something about controlling

246
00:10:37,925 --> 00:10:39,245
the controllables for us.

247
00:10:39,825 --> 00:10:42,685
So in the situation where we're talking about Sally's,

248
00:10:42,985 --> 00:10:45,005
and you could apply that to any of the others, you know,

249
00:10:45,285 --> 00:10:48,045
scenarios is having high expectations

250
00:10:48,045 --> 00:10:50,405
of ourselves is really important in terms of what we do.

251
00:10:50,635 --> 00:10:52,565
Because actually the role that we have

252
00:10:52,565 --> 00:10:54,765
with our clients demands high expectation.

253
00:10:55,065 --> 00:10:57,045
It, we're in a quality management business.

254
00:10:57,505 --> 00:10:59,045
So, so quality has

255
00:10:59,045 --> 00:11:00,325
to permeate through everything that we do.

256
00:11:01,815 --> 00:11:05,605
Where that I think sometimes causes us some challenges,

257
00:11:05,985 --> 00:11:10,245
is the bar that we set for ourselves is incredibly high.

258
00:11:10,905 --> 00:11:13,845
So maybe that's something we've got

259
00:11:13,845 --> 00:11:15,525
to think about is what does that look like?

260
00:11:15,665 --> 00:11:18,165
If we are, where can we lower the bar?

261
00:11:18,175 --> 00:11:20,605
Where is gold standard not needed?

262
00:11:21,135 --> 00:11:23,045
Where is it that we can let things go

263
00:11:23,155 --> 00:11:24,485
that we're not letting go?

264
00:11:24,485 --> 00:11:25,805
Because actually we want to do them

265
00:11:25,805 --> 00:11:26,845
and we're excited for them.

266
00:11:27,185 --> 00:11:28,485
My, my worst

267
00:11:28,585 --> 00:11:32,805
and best feature is my, I've got an idea.

268
00:11:33,655 --> 00:11:36,285
Let's do it. Let's do this. This is a great idea.

269
00:11:36,705 --> 00:11:40,965
That's marvellous in, in one extent because it keeps us alive

270
00:11:40,965 --> 00:11:41,965
and it keeps us fresh.

271
00:11:42,265 --> 00:11:45,045
But then it ends up in Sally's workload.

272
00:11:45,445 --> 00:11:48,565
I don't mind kicking a few, like 50, 60 hour weeks around.

273
00:11:48,565 --> 00:11:50,845
That isn't, that isn't an issue for me at all.

274
00:11:51,475 --> 00:11:54,685
It's the fact that it almost feels unfair to me

275
00:11:54,685 --> 00:11:56,245
that I can't do that in some ways,

276
00:11:56,465 --> 00:12:00,125
or that it, that it caused cost so much to me personally

277
00:12:00,145 --> 00:12:02,365
or to my family to be able to do those things.

278
00:12:02,625 --> 00:12:06,645
It feels unfair. 'cause I think, you know, 20 years ago, 15,

279
00:12:06,645 --> 00:12:08,245
20 years ago wouldn't have been an issue.

280
00:12:08,525 --> 00:12:10,205
I would've just done it. It wouldn't have been fine.

281
00:12:10,225 --> 00:12:12,245
It would've been fine. I wouldn't have felt

282
00:12:12,245 --> 00:12:13,365
so tired at the end of it.

283
00:12:14,225 --> 00:12:16,405
I'm not even gonna let say age would be a

284
00:12:16,565 --> 00:12:17,725
consideration 'cause it just wouldn't.

285
00:12:17,725 --> 00:12:19,085
And I've still got loads of energy.

286
00:12:19,355 --> 00:12:20,605
It's nothing to do with that.

287
00:12:21,315 --> 00:12:24,125
It's to do with the fact that you've only got so many hours

288
00:12:24,185 --> 00:12:27,085
and so much capacity in the week to, to,

289
00:12:27,085 --> 00:12:28,085
You've got another job there.

290
00:12:28,545 --> 00:12:31,045
The parental care is another. Yeah. Yeah.

291
00:12:31,465 --> 00:12:34,605
Unpaid job that's taking your resources.

292
00:12:34,945 --> 00:12:36,725
So what could an employer do about that?

293
00:12:36,925 --> 00:12:38,365
'cause I know you didn't wanna get into policy

294
00:12:38,505 --> 00:12:40,485
and politics, so is there anything

295
00:12:40,485 --> 00:12:41,605
that an employer could do?

296
00:12:42,445 --> 00:12:43,285
I don't think it's up to the

297
00:12:43,405 --> 00:12:44,405
employers to deal with the scenario.

298
00:12:44,445 --> 00:12:46,725
I think it's up to the, the government to make the changes.

299
00:12:47,035 --> 00:12:48,765
It's so employers will do

300
00:12:48,845 --> 00:12:51,645
what they can do within the restrictions that they have.

301
00:12:51,925 --> 00:12:53,405
'cause they've got a, they have a business to run.

302
00:12:53,495 --> 00:12:54,605
Don't be so understanding.

303
00:12:55,265 --> 00:12:56,965
Forget that there's any help

304
00:12:56,965 --> 00:13:00,245
that's gonna come from no matter which political party what.

305
00:13:00,305 --> 00:13:01,885
So we're not talking policy here.

306
00:13:02,465 --> 00:13:04,885
I'm thinking things like with childcare, there are firms

307
00:13:04,885 --> 00:13:08,485
that we've spoken to who adjust the diary so

308
00:13:08,555 --> 00:13:10,805
that the parent can be on the school run.

309
00:13:10,835 --> 00:13:13,005
Yeah. So they can do the school run, then come back,

310
00:13:13,005 --> 00:13:14,365
pick up their work as they get on.

311
00:13:14,365 --> 00:13:15,885
Yeah. And they've adjusted that. Are there

312
00:13:15,905 --> 00:13:17,005
any things like that

313
00:13:17,155 --> 00:13:18,285
That, that already happens?

314
00:13:18,745 --> 00:13:20,445
So that's, okay. So everything

315
00:13:20,445 --> 00:13:24,165
that a business could do, Mesma probably have done.

316
00:13:24,625 --> 00:13:28,765
And that's partly due to, you know, um, Lou

317
00:13:28,765 --> 00:13:29,885
and Carole making those decisions.

318
00:13:29,885 --> 00:13:32,405
But also because the world of work has moved on.

319
00:13:32,635 --> 00:13:33,885
What would those examples be?

320
00:13:34,145 --> 00:13:37,445
So having flexibility when you can work is, um, hours.

321
00:13:37,655 --> 00:13:39,365
Hours and locations as well.

322
00:13:39,665 --> 00:13:40,805
You know, um,

323
00:13:44,265 --> 00:13:47,445
So there's, so the, the, the I i I,

324
00:13:47,605 --> 00:13:50,645
I genuinely don't expect my employer to do anything

325
00:13:50,705 --> 00:13:53,445
to support me in my, in my scenario.

326
00:13:53,725 --> 00:13:56,805
I think it's up to, it's, I have personal responsibility for

327
00:13:56,805 --> 00:13:59,245
what happens outside of the hours that I get paid to work.

328
00:13:59,585 --> 00:14:01,205
And so I have to deal with those.

329
00:14:01,525 --> 00:14:03,605
I think there's an understanding element, which is

330
00:14:03,605 --> 00:14:06,525
what Louise was talking about in terms of if I have an issue

331
00:14:06,525 --> 00:14:08,685
that I, I am dealing with now that I didn't have to deal

332
00:14:08,685 --> 00:14:11,725
with a couple of months ago, have someone understanding

333
00:14:11,785 --> 00:14:14,005
and be able to be flexible about that.

334
00:14:14,165 --> 00:14:17,925
I think that's as much as I can expect them to do. So

335
00:14:17,925 --> 00:14:20,365
What have you offered, or what would you offer

336
00:14:21,385 --> 00:14:24,045
and your advice for other firms in this situation?

337
00:14:24,045 --> 00:14:25,085
Yeah. Things to consider.

338
00:14:25,425 --> 00:14:28,125
So, so the, the, the advice for other firms is,

339
00:14:28,445 --> 00:14:30,285
I don't know how you can function these days without

340
00:14:30,445 --> 00:14:31,885
building flexibility into what you do.

341
00:14:32,005 --> 00:14:34,845
I fully appreciate there are some sectors that's a no go.

342
00:14:35,065 --> 00:14:37,205
So if you work in the care sector, uh,

343
00:14:37,205 --> 00:14:39,205
you working in retail, you know, the, the the,

344
00:14:39,465 --> 00:14:42,285
we have a flexibility because of the nature of what we do.

345
00:14:42,625 --> 00:14:44,285
And, and therefore I'm mindful of

346
00:14:44,285 --> 00:14:45,325
that in what I'm about to say.

347
00:14:45,745 --> 00:14:49,285
So, so those things like the simple things like the school

348
00:14:49,345 --> 00:14:53,125
run, the appointments for doctors, um, speaking

349
00:14:53,145 --> 00:14:56,085
to medical people, there, there are those things that affect

350
00:14:56,945 --> 00:14:58,005
all of us in different ways

351
00:14:58,395 --> 00:15:00,965
that I think you're nuts if you're not already thinking

352
00:15:00,965 --> 00:15:02,445
about how you build that level

353
00:15:02,445 --> 00:15:03,885
of flexibility into your workforce.

354
00:15:03,885 --> 00:15:08,005
Because I am absolutely confident we get back in spades

355
00:15:08,005 --> 00:15:09,005
what we give out.

356
00:15:09,625 --> 00:15:11,925
So, and more on, on top of that.

357
00:15:12,025 --> 00:15:14,005
So we, so that for me is the number

358
00:15:14,025 --> 00:15:15,205
one is how do you make that work?

359
00:15:15,585 --> 00:15:18,565
Um, I think again, if you can, again, some sectors can't,

360
00:15:18,565 --> 00:15:20,405
then the model of of

361
00:15:21,035 --> 00:15:23,925
home v office work is important

362
00:15:23,925 --> 00:15:25,525
because it allows for some of that.

363
00:15:25,645 --> 00:15:29,605
I worry about it for different reasons about that model,

364
00:15:29,905 --> 00:15:32,645
but I think it does help up to a point, you know, the fact

365
00:15:32,645 --> 00:15:33,885
that we've got that in place.

366
00:15:34,505 --> 00:15:37,405
Um, the things I think we haven't put enough thought into

367
00:15:37,825 --> 00:15:42,605
are things like, um, how might

368
00:15:42,605 --> 00:15:44,925
that look with, um,

369
00:15:45,545 --> 00:15:47,725
not talking about Sally's situation necessarily,

370
00:15:47,825 --> 00:15:49,045
but actually less hours.

371
00:15:49,665 --> 00:15:52,605
So rather than it just being about the times you can work,

372
00:15:53,065 --> 00:15:54,165
is there a period of time

373
00:15:54,165 --> 00:15:55,765
where you can reduce someone's hours?

374
00:15:55,915 --> 00:15:57,525
Because that works for them with,

375
00:15:57,555 --> 00:15:59,525
with an absolute cast iron guarantee.

376
00:15:59,875 --> 00:16:01,845
When this is finished in six months, a year's time,

377
00:16:02,085 --> 00:16:04,325
whatever it is, then you come back to full-time working.

378
00:16:04,905 --> 00:16:07,485
Um, maybe for some people that works, maybe there's people

379
00:16:07,545 --> 00:16:09,845
who want sabbaticals in order to deal with it.

380
00:16:10,185 --> 00:16:13,565
That's tough when you're a small business to make that work.

381
00:16:13,915 --> 00:16:16,485
That doesn't mean that we can't make it work.

382
00:16:17,045 --> 00:16:20,805
I, for me, the one that is the most controllable of any

383
00:16:20,805 --> 00:16:23,525
of those things is around, um,

384
00:16:25,105 --> 00:16:27,285
how we look at the expectation on workload.

385
00:16:28,595 --> 00:16:32,765
That that's the one we haven't sat down in a targeted

386
00:16:33,065 --> 00:16:34,405
and concerted way

387
00:16:35,105 --> 00:16:38,165
and said, let's have a look at what's on your plate

388
00:16:38,865 --> 00:16:40,645
and does this make sense

389
00:16:40,715 --> 00:16:43,485
because of what's going on for you, you know, outside

390
00:16:43,485 --> 00:16:46,565
of work, coming back to your scenario specifically, I think

391
00:16:46,565 --> 00:16:50,405
that conversation, we, we have the conversation around

392
00:16:50,425 --> 00:16:53,965
and about, we don't have that conversation in a way that I,

393
00:16:54,045 --> 00:16:55,805
I feel that, you know, we, we should have done.

394
00:16:56,115 --> 00:16:59,445
It's amplified in a small business to a point where

395
00:17:00,065 --> 00:17:04,325
you can't not encroach in people's private lives in order

396
00:17:04,385 --> 00:17:06,085
to be able to say, well actually

397
00:17:06,105 --> 00:17:07,725
how can we make this work better?

398
00:17:07,955 --> 00:17:11,285
Because when someone is underperforming in a small

399
00:17:11,525 --> 00:17:12,845
business, you know it don't you?

400
00:17:13,065 --> 00:17:15,165
So, so actually if any of us were un

401
00:17:15,165 --> 00:17:16,325
and at different times there's peaks

402
00:17:16,325 --> 00:17:17,725
and troughs of them, everyone where, you know,

403
00:17:17,725 --> 00:17:20,005
you're at the top of your game and then you don't know the

404
00:17:20,005 --> 00:17:21,485
next month you make think, oh my God,

405
00:17:21,505 --> 00:17:22,965
I'm an absolute bloody waste of space.

406
00:17:23,025 --> 00:17:24,125
You know, what am I doing here?

407
00:17:24,425 --> 00:17:26,205
I'm not adding anything to this business.

408
00:17:26,645 --> 00:17:27,685
Everyone will go through that.

409
00:17:27,725 --> 00:17:28,765
I, I imagine within,

410
00:17:28,765 --> 00:17:30,765
maybe it's just me in in their own jobs.

411
00:17:31,085 --> 00:17:32,445
You have the peaks and troughs of it,

412
00:17:32,625 --> 00:17:34,285
but when people are having the trough

413
00:17:34,865 --> 00:17:38,165
and you have some insight into what's happening for them

414
00:17:38,165 --> 00:17:41,045
outside of work, then you can navigate

415
00:17:41,045 --> 00:17:42,485
that sometimes better.

416
00:17:42,945 --> 00:17:44,365
I'm not saying we do it well by the way.

417
00:17:44,565 --> 00:17:46,085
I, I think there'll be times we've done it well

418
00:17:46,085 --> 00:17:48,045
and times I'm confident we haven't.

419
00:17:48,465 --> 00:17:52,005
One thing that SMEs do beautifully, it's their bread

420
00:17:52,005 --> 00:17:54,965
and butter is develop very strong client relationships.

421
00:17:55,025 --> 00:17:56,925
Mm-Hmm. Um, I think you said this Sally,

422
00:17:56,925 --> 00:17:58,805
that you're not just the marketing manager,

423
00:17:58,945 --> 00:18:00,645
you are the therapist.

424
00:18:00,835 --> 00:18:02,965
Well, no, not me. So the team more

425
00:18:02,965 --> 00:18:04,045
than me as well as anything else.

426
00:18:04,105 --> 00:18:07,365
And, and, and all of us have got different clients

427
00:18:07,445 --> 00:18:09,005
that we've got got closer to,

428
00:18:09,005 --> 00:18:10,765
and I think you do that anyway in any business.

429
00:18:10,825 --> 00:18:13,845
But I think there's something about the nature of Mesma

430
00:18:13,845 --> 00:18:16,485
and what we do with our customers that is different.

431
00:18:17,345 --> 00:18:18,405
Um, and,

432
00:18:19,145 --> 00:18:22,325
and I think the, you know, I think I made the point a couple

433
00:18:22,325 --> 00:18:25,485
of points around things like we don't put an awful lot

434
00:18:25,485 --> 00:18:26,805
of client notes on the system

435
00:18:26,805 --> 00:18:28,725
because of just the nature of the business

436
00:18:28,725 --> 00:18:30,405
and what we do with our customers.

437
00:18:30,625 --> 00:18:33,405
So, um, actually it's

438
00:18:33,405 --> 00:18:35,005
because, you know, we, we've built those

439
00:18:35,005 --> 00:18:36,085
relationships over time.

440
00:18:36,405 --> 00:18:38,285
I know that if people are have an issue

441
00:18:38,345 --> 00:18:41,445
or outside of working hours, they wouldn't be afraid

442
00:18:41,445 --> 00:18:43,565
to get in touch with Louise or Carole about that

443
00:18:43,825 --> 00:18:45,925
or any of the other associates in the business.

444
00:18:46,145 --> 00:18:47,285
And, and,

445
00:18:47,305 --> 00:18:49,485
and I don't think you've always get that level

446
00:18:49,545 --> 00:18:52,365
of personal relationships with your customer base

447
00:18:52,365 --> 00:18:53,365
that we have here.

448
00:18:53,865 --> 00:18:56,365
So as the company grows,

449
00:18:57,105 --> 00:18:59,045
how do you nurture that?

450
00:18:59,145 --> 00:19:00,485
How do you sustain that?

451
00:19:01,165 --> 00:19:04,325
A lot of really large companies go full circle, don't they?

452
00:19:04,765 --> 00:19:06,045
Absolutely. And, and think we did

453
00:19:06,045 --> 00:19:08,085
really well with our staff. Where did that

454
00:19:08,085 --> 00:19:09,085
Go? Absolutely.

455
00:19:09,085 --> 00:19:09,965
I I think, um,

456
00:19:11,125 --> 00:19:12,485
I hate using the word strategically

457
00:19:12,645 --> 00:19:13,645
'cause it's so dull, isn't it?

458
00:19:13,705 --> 00:19:15,125
But there you go. It's on the table now.

459
00:19:15,805 --> 00:19:20,085
I, I think about that a lot around, um, our,

460
00:19:21,805 --> 00:19:24,245
probably one of our biggest unique selling points.

461
00:19:24,315 --> 00:19:26,205
I've done two look at me going on business.

462
00:19:26,745 --> 00:19:29,445
Um, if I look at that unique, um, selling point of us, one

463
00:19:29,445 --> 00:19:30,805
of them is about our client relationships.

464
00:19:30,865 --> 00:19:32,925
As Sally said, the strength of relationship

465
00:19:32,945 --> 00:19:34,165
and the bond that we have

466
00:19:34,665 --> 00:19:36,525
and the, it's okay to send

467
00:19:36,525 --> 00:19:38,365
that message at 10 o'clock at night

468
00:19:38,675 --> 00:19:40,645
because you've got a regulator in

469
00:19:40,785 --> 00:19:41,965
and you're worried about something.

470
00:19:41,965 --> 00:19:43,445
That's okay. And we'll respond to that

471
00:19:44,345 --> 00:19:47,245
is also our achilles heel when we start

472
00:19:47,245 --> 00:19:48,525
to think about how we grow that.

473
00:19:49,105 --> 00:19:53,365
So there are things that I do personally because I go out

474
00:19:53,365 --> 00:19:54,805
and still deliver consultancy.

475
00:19:54,845 --> 00:19:57,485
I still deliver events. I don't imagine, um, not doing that.

476
00:19:57,875 --> 00:20:00,405
That we struggle a little bit to think about

477
00:20:00,425 --> 00:20:04,205
how we extract me from those types of activities.

478
00:20:04,465 --> 00:20:06,245
And actually, if we're going to grow, that has to happen.

479
00:20:06,315 --> 00:20:08,125
It's not just me that applies, you know,

480
00:20:08,125 --> 00:20:09,685
across the board in, in different ways.

481
00:20:10,225 --> 00:20:13,445
Um, so, so we have to think that through really carefully.

482
00:20:14,025 --> 00:20:18,045
And to think, I, I think about what is the DNA of

483
00:20:18,045 --> 00:20:19,325
that relationship structure.

484
00:20:19,545 --> 00:20:21,765
So actually it's not just built on

485
00:20:21,765 --> 00:20:22,925
that personal relationship

486
00:20:22,925 --> 00:20:24,365
that you've established over time,

487
00:20:24,785 --> 00:20:29,565
but we extract the DNA from that so it becomes something

488
00:20:29,565 --> 00:20:33,245
that can be replicated as much as that is possible.

489
00:20:33,535 --> 00:20:36,085
There are some of our clients who we don't have

490
00:20:36,275 --> 00:20:37,685
that close relationship with

491
00:20:37,685 --> 00:20:40,485
because they don't want it with us, they don't need it.

492
00:20:40,675 --> 00:20:43,405
They buy the software for example, and that's all they want.

493
00:20:43,425 --> 00:20:45,765
You know, it's a commodity that they use in order

494
00:20:45,765 --> 00:20:47,005
to do what they need to do.

495
00:20:47,455 --> 00:20:50,845
There are others that we know, probably some of them as well

496
00:20:50,845 --> 00:20:52,725
as we know our own team, some

497
00:20:52,725 --> 00:20:54,485
of them actually arguably better, uh,

498
00:20:54,485 --> 00:20:58,045
because of how tight that bond is between us.

499
00:20:58,225 --> 00:21:01,285
So is that a mixture of internal comms and external,

500
00:21:01,705 --> 00:21:06,165
or is it just, how do you keep those core values

501
00:21:06,835 --> 00:21:09,205
through the firm no matter how big it gets?

502
00:21:09,565 --> 00:21:11,685
I think if you try and force it, it won't happen.

503
00:21:12,065 --> 00:21:15,565
So I think there has to be an a need from your customer

504
00:21:15,785 --> 00:21:19,485
to want to embrace that as part being a feature

505
00:21:19,505 --> 00:21:21,765
of the business and being a feature of what you get from,

506
00:21:22,785 --> 00:21:24,085
um, working with Mesma.

507
00:21:24,325 --> 00:21:25,645
'cause I think there's a need for it

508
00:21:25,675 --> 00:21:28,525
amongst the professional group that we work with.

509
00:21:28,945 --> 00:21:31,405
So if you were to try and do it maybe in a different sector

510
00:21:31,415 --> 00:21:34,085
where they perhaps didn't have that need for that,

511
00:21:34,235 --> 00:21:37,205
then they would go, actually, I just really wanna buy a bit

512
00:21:37,205 --> 00:21:39,045
of software off you, or I just really wanna buy,

513
00:21:39,385 --> 00:21:41,925
or I just really need your support to fix this problem.

514
00:21:42,405 --> 00:21:45,205
I don't necessarily wanna them become part of a community,

515
00:21:45,465 --> 00:21:46,605
you know, thank you very much.

516
00:21:46,785 --> 00:21:48,005
But I'll, I'll leave it there.

517
00:21:48,315 --> 00:21:49,805
There's a real fine balance with that.

518
00:21:49,805 --> 00:21:51,805
And I, I think, you know, I'm, I'm, I'm reluctant

519
00:21:51,805 --> 00:21:53,765
to step into the AI space, but,

520
00:21:53,825 --> 00:21:57,485
but I, I think that as we head into that world of

521
00:21:57,935 --> 00:22:00,925
where does the human element of the way that you engage

522
00:22:01,085 --> 00:22:03,085
with your clients get retained, you know, I'm,

523
00:22:03,085 --> 00:22:04,725
I'm sure everyone who's listening to this

524
00:22:04,725 --> 00:22:07,365
or watching it can immediately think of, I know

525
00:22:07,365 --> 00:22:09,005
what my inbox looks like at the moment,

526
00:22:09,105 --> 00:22:12,045
or my LinkedIn dms, which is just a stream

527
00:22:12,045 --> 00:22:13,925
of AI generated blurb

528
00:22:14,195 --> 00:22:15,925
that I just delete the whole lot of them.

529
00:22:15,985 --> 00:22:18,605
You know, that that's,

530
00:22:18,605 --> 00:22:21,845
that's not client relationship based from any part of the,

531
00:22:21,945 --> 00:22:23,605
the journey that you have with your clients,

532
00:22:23,605 --> 00:22:25,525
whether they're a prospect through to someone

533
00:22:25,525 --> 00:22:26,685
that you work with as a customer.

534
00:22:26,945 --> 00:22:29,605
So I think the people who navigate that well are,

535
00:22:29,665 --> 00:22:31,925
are the businesses that are going to be successful.

536
00:22:32,355 --> 00:22:34,045
Just something you said before that I thought I'd come back

537
00:22:34,045 --> 00:22:37,045
on where you said about is it about how you internalise it,

538
00:22:37,265 --> 00:22:40,405
um, your values, to give you an example of it where,

539
00:22:40,455 --> 00:22:43,965
where I think values can be dangerous,

540
00:22:44,055 --> 00:22:46,005
which is a really weird sentence.

541
00:22:46,165 --> 00:22:48,325
I see your face, Charlie, look at me as if to go,

542
00:22:48,435 --> 00:22:49,445
what are you talking about?

543
00:22:50,025 --> 00:22:53,925
And this is a Mesma example, is I'm

544
00:22:54,025 --> 00:22:58,285
so hell bent on delivering to what I think we stand for,

545
00:22:58,715 --> 00:23:01,365
that there are times what I

546
00:23:02,655 --> 00:23:05,805
drive our team to do puts work pressure on them.

547
00:23:06,425 --> 00:23:08,365
And I'll give you perfect example of this

548
00:23:08,365 --> 00:23:10,565
Uncompromising, Um, uh,

549
00:23:10,885 --> 00:23:14,165
I don't think I'm uncompromising, but I,

550
00:23:14,165 --> 00:23:17,525
but there are things that I'm less willing to compromise on.

551
00:23:18,905 --> 00:23:20,645
So, so, so, so,

552
00:23:21,145 --> 00:23:23,725
so I'm gonna give you the example to work that

553
00:23:23,725 --> 00:23:24,725
Through.

554
00:23:26,355 --> 00:23:27,765
I'll give you the example of that.

555
00:23:28,345 --> 00:23:30,085
So you don't think I'm going completely mad.

556
00:23:31,145 --> 00:23:35,285
I'm very clear that, and we've done a fantastic job of it.

557
00:23:35,285 --> 00:23:36,365
We're well known for it.

558
00:23:36,435 --> 00:23:40,205
It's given us a huge marketing boost that half

559
00:23:40,205 --> 00:23:42,245
of our business, half of our team are recruited

560
00:23:42,245 --> 00:23:44,485
as apprentices, including Sally into her role.

561
00:23:45,185 --> 00:23:47,725
We take on, um, T level placement students,

562
00:23:48,185 --> 00:23:51,245
we took on a kickstart placement when that happened

563
00:23:51,245 --> 00:23:53,685
during Covid, we take on internships.

564
00:23:54,465 --> 00:23:55,605
That's fabulous

565
00:23:55,605 --> 00:23:58,005
because all of that speaks to what we stand

566
00:23:58,065 --> 00:23:59,085
for and our values.

567
00:23:59,705 --> 00:24:03,085
But then what comes with that is a, is a tsunami

568
00:24:03,225 --> 00:24:05,405
of workload that hits our team.

569
00:24:05,455 --> 00:24:08,205
Would that be fair? Yeah. In that happen. 'cause you need

570
00:24:08,205 --> 00:24:09,325
To support that person

571
00:24:09,355 --> 00:24:10,725
Because you've got to support them.

572
00:24:10,905 --> 00:24:12,485
Yes. You've got to make that happen.

573
00:24:12,665 --> 00:24:17,245
And I'm so uncompromising on that

574
00:24:18,145 --> 00:24:22,125
around we have a responsibility in the northeast of England.

575
00:24:22,545 --> 00:24:23,965
We have the highest younger

576
00:24:23,965 --> 00:24:25,765
of num young people who are out of work.

577
00:24:26,025 --> 00:24:27,805
We have the lowest number of apprenticeships.

578
00:24:27,865 --> 00:24:29,805
We have a very high number of SMEs.

579
00:24:30,065 --> 00:24:32,245
We have very few big corporate businesses.

580
00:24:32,705 --> 00:24:34,365
So if we are not gonna do that,

581
00:24:35,145 --> 00:24:36,605
who is going to make that happen?

582
00:24:37,305 --> 00:24:39,365
And also we sell into that sector.

583
00:24:39,945 --> 00:24:42,645
So how can you possibly sell into

584
00:24:42,645 --> 00:24:44,845
that sector if you can't walk the talk of that

585
00:24:44,845 --> 00:24:45,845
as a business yourself?

586
00:24:46,345 --> 00:24:49,205
So there's lots of reasons why we do that

587
00:24:49,665 --> 00:24:52,325
and are very thoughtful in making that happen.

588
00:24:52,745 --> 00:24:54,605
And there have been successes around that.

589
00:24:54,635 --> 00:24:56,725
However, the however is,

590
00:24:57,025 --> 00:24:59,725
and we've had a conversation earlier in this podcast about

591
00:25:00,125 --> 00:25:03,525
workload and pressure and personal life and so on.

592
00:25:03,625 --> 00:25:08,085
And there are things that I direct that I have

593
00:25:08,085 --> 00:25:09,285
to be more mindful of.

594
00:25:09,745 --> 00:25:12,005
So your values can underpin what you do,

595
00:25:12,425 --> 00:25:16,045
but there is a point where you,

596
00:25:16,045 --> 00:25:19,445
you're not giving up on them, but recognising

597
00:25:19,445 --> 00:25:22,885
and responding to the impact of living them sometimes.

598
00:25:23,385 --> 00:25:24,885
Um, so I think you've got kind of like,

599
00:25:24,885 --> 00:25:27,285
you've got a responsibility to your, your team to make sure

600
00:25:27,285 --> 00:25:28,965
that they're supported and they have the workload.

601
00:25:29,005 --> 00:25:31,205
I think you've also got responsibilities to that individual

602
00:25:31,385 --> 00:25:32,685
to make sure that you're in a position

603
00:25:32,685 --> 00:25:33,845
to be able to support them.

604
00:25:34,625 --> 00:25:37,325
And because we all understand that

605
00:25:37,425 --> 00:25:38,725
and know what was required of that,

606
00:25:39,265 --> 00:25:42,285
and maybe slightly reluctantly agreed to it

607
00:25:42,285 --> 00:25:43,685
because we knew what was required

608
00:25:43,685 --> 00:25:45,725
because we know that that support is needed.

609
00:25:46,485 --> 00:25:49,125
I think that, um, that's better than just

610
00:25:49,125 --> 00:25:50,445
saying, no, I'm not going to do it.

611
00:25:50,475 --> 00:25:55,405
Because actually what you get from, from putting yourself in

612
00:25:55,405 --> 00:25:59,845
that situation is you get new ideas, you get fresh talent,

613
00:26:00,225 --> 00:26:02,765
you get that, um, responsibility,

614
00:26:03,125 --> 00:26:05,725
a social responsibility part of it, which we do need

615
00:26:05,725 --> 00:26:07,005
to have more of in the northeast.

616
00:26:07,865 --> 00:26:10,685
So I think it's, um, so I think you have to do it

617
00:26:10,705 --> 00:26:12,965
and just be very aware of the responsibility

618
00:26:12,965 --> 00:26:14,685
that comes with it as well. 'cause

619
00:26:14,685 --> 00:26:16,325
I was just thinking about return on investment.

620
00:26:16,585 --> 00:26:19,045
I'm not necessarily meaning in terms of finances,

621
00:26:19,045 --> 00:26:22,205
but time, time and resources that if you're putting

622
00:26:22,235 --> 00:26:24,525
that energy into apprentices and,

623
00:26:24,745 --> 00:26:27,805
and you support apprentices in later life as well,

624
00:26:27,805 --> 00:26:29,205
don't you, you are very keen on that.

625
00:26:29,305 --> 00:26:31,325
So there's kind of like second careers

626
00:26:31,345 --> 00:26:33,725
and we've talked about older population,

627
00:26:33,725 --> 00:26:36,245
older workforce giving that opportunity there.

628
00:26:37,225 --> 00:26:38,605
You wanna get it back at the other end.

629
00:26:39,185 --> 00:26:41,765
You do, don't you? I think with, I think with apprentices,

630
00:26:43,345 --> 00:26:46,845
the ROI is really clear, um, that, um,

631
00:26:47,805 --> 00:26:51,005
I I wouldn't change that for the world that, that we, we,

632
00:26:51,025 --> 00:26:53,965
we operate with Mesma, an apprenticeship first policy,

633
00:26:54,455 --> 00:26:57,325
which is if we need to recruit a new job, we have

634
00:26:57,325 --> 00:26:58,645
to talk ourselves out

635
00:26:58,645 --> 00:27:00,045
of why it shouldn't be an apprenticeship

636
00:27:00,045 --> 00:27:01,125
rather than into it.

637
00:27:01,305 --> 00:27:03,925
And I think that's a fundamental difference with lots

638
00:27:03,925 --> 00:27:06,405
of other businesses who, assuming they don't pay the

639
00:27:06,405 --> 00:27:07,525
apprenticeship levy you,

640
00:27:07,525 --> 00:27:09,245
which has got a different reason for doing it.

641
00:27:09,545 --> 00:27:11,725
If you're a small business and you don't pay it,

642
00:27:11,755 --> 00:27:14,285
talking yourself into it is a very different mindset

643
00:27:14,425 --> 00:27:15,445
to talking yourself out of it.

644
00:27:15,445 --> 00:27:16,765
Mm-Hmm. So, so that's what we do.

645
00:27:16,765 --> 00:27:19,445
We start with it, it's gonna be one unless we prove why not.

646
00:27:20,225 --> 00:27:23,925
And our apprentices that we've taken on, Sal being one

647
00:27:23,925 --> 00:27:25,365
of them, have been exceptional.

648
00:27:25,865 --> 00:27:29,045
And that's from a school leader who didn't want

649
00:27:29,045 --> 00:27:31,645
to move into university to Evan,

650
00:27:31,985 --> 00:27:33,845
who is a professional rugby player,

651
00:27:33,845 --> 00:27:37,085
and it's his second career, um, to Liam who had a business

652
00:27:37,105 --> 00:27:38,205
as a personal trainer.

653
00:27:38,785 --> 00:27:40,405
And it went under during covid,

654
00:27:40,945 --> 00:27:43,965
but he had shown some real aptitude around web development,

655
00:27:44,265 --> 00:27:46,925
um, to Sally who was looking for a different career and a,

656
00:27:46,925 --> 00:27:48,765
and a real drive in interesting marketing.

657
00:27:49,065 --> 00:27:50,925
So there is not a single bit of that

658
00:27:50,925 --> 00:27:54,245
that I don't think the pain points, if I can call it that.

659
00:27:54,245 --> 00:27:57,805
And I, the perfect example of that would be that, um,

660
00:27:59,105 --> 00:28:01,125
we have gone down for our staff members

661
00:28:01,185 --> 00:28:02,725
who want it to a four day week.

662
00:28:02,825 --> 00:28:04,405
So we've offered that to everyone

663
00:28:04,405 --> 00:28:06,405
and said, if you want to work a four day week,

664
00:28:06,595 --> 00:28:09,365
then you can do that for some of our staff

665
00:28:09,505 --> 00:28:10,925
for reasons you now know love.

666
00:28:10,925 --> 00:28:12,605
That's not necessarily the right option.

667
00:28:12,705 --> 00:28:14,845
So we carry on with a different flexibility

668
00:28:14,855 --> 00:28:16,405
until it's the right time to do it.

669
00:28:16,825 --> 00:28:18,965
But we couldn't not offer that to our apprentices

670
00:28:19,025 --> 00:28:21,845
who also have a day out to go and study.

671
00:28:22,385 --> 00:28:25,205
So, so one of our developers is already out,

672
00:28:25,585 --> 00:28:27,445
but we still offered that extra.

673
00:28:27,545 --> 00:28:31,405
So that's a really big deal that we've lost that extra day,

674
00:28:31,865 --> 00:28:33,965
but we know we will get that back.

675
00:28:34,225 --> 00:28:37,365
And I, I do think there's an element of loyalty with that,

676
00:28:37,835 --> 00:28:41,365
knowing that you've willingly allowed someone to still do

677
00:28:41,365 --> 00:28:42,965
that and not reduce the amount

678
00:28:42,965 --> 00:28:44,725
of time that they're studying. Okay.

679
00:28:44,925 --> 00:28:48,325
A few quick fire questions about hybrid working

680
00:28:48,545 --> 00:28:50,325
and the changes to working practices.

681
00:28:50,425 --> 00:28:54,365
So four day week, that's a full commitment from me.

682
00:28:54,555 --> 00:28:56,285
Full commitment. It's contractual change.

683
00:28:56,465 --> 00:28:59,005
So, so, um, not a, oh, you can do it

684
00:28:59,005 --> 00:29:01,645
and, you know, we don't really mean it, it was a,

685
00:29:01,685 --> 00:29:02,765
a contractual change.

686
00:29:02,985 --> 00:29:05,445
Um, Carole, my business partner, um, led on that.

687
00:29:05,745 --> 00:29:08,205
We, we, it took about 12 months, you know, to get it

688
00:29:08,205 --> 00:29:09,325
to the point of saying, actually

689
00:29:09,325 --> 00:29:10,885
how can we make this work in practice?

690
00:29:11,145 --> 00:29:12,885
And then got to it and thought, let's just, you know,

691
00:29:12,885 --> 00:29:14,125
we've gotta do this at some point.

692
00:29:14,225 --> 00:29:16,765
But you didn't wanna do it. No.

693
00:29:17,265 --> 00:29:18,885
Didn't, I didn't wanna do it, couldn't do it

694
00:29:19,345 --> 00:29:20,345
As well. So you are still five

695
00:29:20,345 --> 00:29:20,765
days.

696
00:29:20,995 --> 00:29:22,125
Yeah. But I'm all right with that.

697
00:29:23,065 --> 00:29:24,165
That's your choice. Yeah,

698
00:29:24,425 --> 00:29:25,425
That's my choice. And

699
00:29:25,425 --> 00:29:26,925
actually that's okay. You know, that's okay.

700
00:29:26,925 --> 00:29:29,165
That it's my choice. I'm sometimes,

701
00:29:29,285 --> 00:29:32,525
I think maybe it would be easier to have a four day week,

702
00:29:32,825 --> 00:29:37,645
but I've got, um, school holidays to think about and,

703
00:29:37,785 --> 00:29:40,845
and you know, I've got, I've got different, I, I,

704
00:29:41,125 --> 00:29:44,405
I prefer the flexibility in the week rather than having to,

705
00:29:44,625 --> 00:29:46,245
to be off on, I say a Friday

706
00:29:46,465 --> 00:29:48,525
and be thinking I could be getting on with work

707
00:29:48,705 --> 00:29:49,925
and not working on a Tuesday.

708
00:29:50,805 --> 00:29:51,805
'cause I've got more flexibility.

709
00:29:52,665 --> 00:29:54,885
If you looked at a software developer job with Mesma,

710
00:29:54,965 --> 00:29:58,045
like for like, with a software developer job at

711
00:29:58,645 --> 00:30:00,125
a very large, um,

712
00:30:00,125 --> 00:30:02,605
public sector organisation in the North East,

713
00:30:03,425 --> 00:30:04,845
we can't pay that salary.

714
00:30:05,695 --> 00:30:08,845
We're, we're not big enough to pay to match that salary.

715
00:30:09,475 --> 00:30:12,325
Like for like, so you have to, as a small business,

716
00:30:12,345 --> 00:30:16,685
be more creative about how do we provide different things

717
00:30:17,195 --> 00:30:20,285
that might matter to someone more than the end salary.

718
00:30:20,385 --> 00:30:21,525
And for others it won't, you know,

719
00:30:21,525 --> 00:30:22,725
the salary will be everything,

720
00:30:23,025 --> 00:30:25,085
but we, there, there comes a point where you go,

721
00:30:25,085 --> 00:30:26,285
we're not gonna be able to do that.

722
00:30:26,305 --> 00:30:27,885
And actually the more we all try

723
00:30:27,885 --> 00:30:29,645
and do that, the more inflation goes dah, dah, dah.

724
00:30:29,785 --> 00:30:31,485
And they just add more because they can.

725
00:30:31,745 --> 00:30:32,965
And, and we can't do that.

726
00:30:33,065 --> 00:30:35,165
So you have to become more innovative

727
00:30:35,665 --> 00:30:38,645
and creative in how do we become a place to work.

728
00:30:39,265 --> 00:30:42,485
And that was one of the things that we were able to do.

729
00:30:43,105 --> 00:30:47,365
You, um, invested in office space here at

730
00:30:47,365 --> 00:30:48,445
Newcastle Helix.

731
00:30:49,025 --> 00:30:50,125
And a major part of

732
00:30:50,125 --> 00:30:52,485
that isn't just having a name above the door.

733
00:30:52,585 --> 00:30:55,485
It was because there was a central base for people to come

734
00:30:55,785 --> 00:30:57,725
and meet and share ideas.

735
00:30:58,825 --> 00:31:01,245
Um, what are the advantages of that?

736
00:31:01,605 --> 00:31:02,885
'cause there is still this debate about

737
00:31:02,985 --> 00:31:04,325
how do you get people to return to work

738
00:31:04,325 --> 00:31:05,605
and should you force them?

739
00:31:06,985 --> 00:31:09,005
The advantages are kind of what you said in the question,

740
00:31:09,095 --> 00:31:12,405
which is, um, there are lots

741
00:31:12,405 --> 00:31:15,085
and lots of examples where you can make a decision

742
00:31:16,225 --> 00:31:19,365
in the space of 30 seconds when you are sitting next

743
00:31:19,365 --> 00:31:22,605
to someone in comparison to online

744
00:31:22,655 --> 00:31:26,445
where you have create a meeting, bring people together.

745
00:31:26,755 --> 00:31:30,485
It's so much more efficient, I think, in the way

746
00:31:30,485 --> 00:31:31,525
that you can get work done.

747
00:31:32,385 --> 00:31:34,645
If you put our developers at this table,

748
00:31:34,715 --> 00:31:37,085
they would literally be shaking their heads at this point

749
00:31:37,085 --> 00:31:39,805
and saying, it is the least productive way for them to work.

750
00:31:40,565 --> 00:31:42,845
'cause you put the likes of me and Sally

751
00:31:42,985 --> 00:31:46,245
and Evan in a room who, the nature of our jobs,

752
00:31:46,465 --> 00:31:47,765
we wanna talk and we're,

753
00:31:48,065 --> 00:31:50,525
and we're, we're exploring ideas together.

754
00:31:51,145 --> 00:31:54,285
And the, the dev, the developers need silence

755
00:31:55,145 --> 00:31:58,765
and a very black room, you know, on their own at midnight.

756
00:31:59,425 --> 00:32:01,925
So it, it doesn't work for everyone.

757
00:32:02,545 --> 00:32:04,485
Um, and that I think will always be

758
00:32:04,485 --> 00:32:05,645
the, the, the case with it.

759
00:32:05,685 --> 00:32:08,605
I, I can think of years ago, um, having developers

760
00:32:08,625 --> 00:32:09,805
or similar roles work for me,

761
00:32:09,805 --> 00:32:11,405
and we had exactly the same issue.

762
00:32:11,425 --> 00:32:12,685
So it's, it is not new.

763
00:32:13,185 --> 00:32:15,765
Um, it's just the fact that we've seen a different way,

764
00:32:16,505 --> 00:32:18,845
and as technology has advanced, it's allowed

765
00:32:18,845 --> 00:32:20,125
that different way to happen

766
00:32:20,705 --> 00:32:23,245
in a much more practical way than it ever has been before.

767
00:32:23,425 --> 00:32:26,085
So, so that's number one is about that opportunity to just

768
00:32:26,615 --> 00:32:28,965
sound ideas of each other and to speak and,

769
00:32:29,065 --> 00:32:30,965
and to have the conversations

770
00:32:30,965 --> 00:32:32,445
that would take longer otherwise.

771
00:32:32,865 --> 00:32:34,525
Um, the other point being is

772
00:32:34,525 --> 00:32:38,165
that we would not have been able to take on apprentices

773
00:32:38,825 --> 00:32:40,685
or placements if we didn't have an office.

774
00:32:41,185 --> 00:32:44,445
The, the, the reason we took the office on was

775
00:32:44,625 --> 00:32:46,205
to allow that to happen.

776
00:32:46,705 --> 00:32:49,325
And actually there's some regulatory, um,

777
00:32:50,365 --> 00:32:52,165
regulatory barriers to that as well.

778
00:32:52,165 --> 00:32:53,765
Whilst you, you're allowed to do it with apprenticeships,

779
00:32:54,025 --> 00:32:56,885
you can't do it with, um, placements.

780
00:32:57,035 --> 00:32:58,645
They have to be done in person.

781
00:32:58,675 --> 00:33:01,085
There's a very small, um, small amount of them

782
00:33:01,085 --> 00:33:03,245
that you can do in a different way to that.

783
00:33:03,585 --> 00:33:06,565
But you are working predominantly from home Sally. Mm-Hmm.

784
00:33:06,645 --> 00:33:10,165
So do you feel like you're missing out on the opportunity

785
00:33:10,345 --> 00:33:11,485
to innovate?

786
00:33:11,485 --> 00:33:13,565
You're missing out on the collaboration,

787
00:33:13,565 --> 00:33:18,405
you're missing out on the osmosis, all the creativity,

788
00:33:18,475 --> 00:33:19,605
fostering creativity.

789
00:33:19,805 --> 00:33:20,845
I think you do miss out on it.

790
00:33:20,925 --> 00:33:22,845
I think, I think there is, like Lou says, you know,

791
00:33:22,845 --> 00:33:27,165
when you are in a job where you are, um, where you are,

792
00:33:27,355 --> 00:33:28,485
they get more creative.

793
00:33:28,745 --> 00:33:30,365
No, they're very, they're still very creative.

794
00:33:30,465 --> 00:33:33,165
But you are in a, you are in the bit of the job where you,

795
00:33:33,265 --> 00:33:34,525
you have to have conversations about

796
00:33:34,565 --> 00:33:36,765
what your customers are talking about while you're listening

797
00:33:36,765 --> 00:33:37,965
to their conversations

798
00:33:37,985 --> 00:33:40,525
and hearing about what themes are coming out

799
00:33:40,525 --> 00:33:42,005
of discussions with customers.

800
00:33:42,765 --> 00:33:44,445
I think that's really important. And I think

801
00:33:44,445 --> 00:33:46,445
So would you mandate because of all that, I mean,

802
00:33:46,445 --> 00:33:47,605
that's a lot of benefits.

803
00:33:48,535 --> 00:33:51,485
Would you mandate then you you should be in the office

804
00:33:51,665 --> 00:33:53,285
for say, two days a week? It,

805
00:33:53,315 --> 00:33:55,605
It's a really interesting question and, and Carole

806
00:33:55,625 --> 00:33:59,045
and I have, um, done that and then stopped that

807
00:33:59,755 --> 00:34:03,485
because it wasn't working where we tried to force

808
00:34:04,065 --> 00:34:05,205
the number of days in.

809
00:34:05,725 --> 00:34:07,725
I think that's a really perfect example.

810
00:34:07,865 --> 00:34:09,885
It feels like, you know, we're, we're coming back

811
00:34:09,885 --> 00:34:12,525
to earlier conversations we've had, we've had,

812
00:34:12,555 --> 00:34:16,605
it's a really perfect example of us also recognising

813
00:34:16,605 --> 00:34:20,765
that if we impose that when people's lives are

814
00:34:21,675 --> 00:34:24,205
happening in a way that is challenging for them,

815
00:34:24,555 --> 00:34:26,205
then we might lose that person.

816
00:34:27,235 --> 00:34:29,845
Yeah. And, and so there has to be so, so it's,

817
00:34:30,265 --> 00:34:33,725
so I see this issue as being like a temporary issue

818
00:34:33,825 --> 00:34:36,245
and I plan to be back in the office in the next couple

819
00:34:36,245 --> 00:34:37,245
Of months. That would be your

820
00:34:37,245 --> 00:34:37,925
preference. That

821
00:34:37,935 --> 00:34:39,165
Preference, definitely.

822
00:34:39,505 --> 00:34:43,205
So it's, it comes back to that thing about if somebody,

823
00:34:43,345 --> 00:34:46,885
if somebody's life circumstances changed, I think 20,

824
00:34:47,105 --> 00:34:49,645
30 years ago you would've, it would've been,

825
00:34:50,215 --> 00:34:51,805
there would've been very little flexibility,

826
00:34:51,805 --> 00:34:52,925
very little compromise.

827
00:34:53,265 --> 00:34:56,765
And after a period of HR process, you would've just been,

828
00:34:57,545 --> 00:34:59,365
you probably would've been disciplined, you know,

829
00:34:59,385 --> 00:35:00,765
for not being able to be in the office.

830
00:35:00,905 --> 00:35:02,445
It would've absolutely been the case

831
00:35:02,505 --> 00:35:05,725
and I would've probably been on the other side of

832
00:35:05,725 --> 00:35:07,885
that process, you know, as a manager at the time.

833
00:35:08,485 --> 00:35:11,165
I think the world has moved on, thankfully

834
00:35:11,465 --> 00:35:12,765
so much since then.

835
00:35:13,225 --> 00:35:15,245
And I think that because we can, we do,

836
00:35:15,645 --> 00:35:17,045
I think we are on the cusp

837
00:35:17,045 --> 00:35:21,045
of a much bigger problem if we don't really get to grips

838
00:35:21,045 --> 00:35:22,925
with how we get people into work

839
00:35:22,925 --> 00:35:24,165
because they want to be there

840
00:35:24,785 --> 00:35:26,805
and we support them when they're in there,

841
00:35:27,345 --> 00:35:30,005
rather than us kind of going, oh, it's okay for some of you

842
00:35:30,005 --> 00:35:31,445
to do this, some of you to do that there,

843
00:35:31,445 --> 00:35:32,725
there's a problem here already.

844
00:35:32,835 --> 00:35:34,165
It's gonna get bigger. And I

845
00:35:34,165 --> 00:35:36,245
Think it's it's doing it from the off, isn't it?

846
00:35:36,245 --> 00:35:38,845
Yeah. It's thinking about the right elements

847
00:35:38,845 --> 00:35:41,685
of hard infrastructure mixed with the right elements

848
00:35:41,685 --> 00:35:42,725
of soft infrastructure

849
00:35:43,145 --> 00:35:45,445
to make those communities that, that we talk about.

850
00:35:45,645 --> 00:35:48,525
Absolutely. Yeah. Um, just to wrap up good work culture.

851
00:35:48,995 --> 00:35:53,085
Give me three things that would be either, um,

852
00:35:53,955 --> 00:35:57,165
good things to you if you were looking for a new job

853
00:35:58,065 --> 00:36:01,165
or, um, a firm was doing something that you thought, right,

854
00:36:01,165 --> 00:36:04,445
that is good work culture or red flags.

855
00:36:05,105 --> 00:36:06,925
Um, in the main, I've been incredibly

856
00:36:06,925 --> 00:36:07,965
fortunate with my career.

857
00:36:08,065 --> 00:36:11,685
If I put it down to one thing, it would be working for

858
00:36:12,265 --> 00:36:16,565
people or companies who allowed me to grow

859
00:36:17,305 --> 00:36:19,125
and had the confidence in me.

860
00:36:19,505 --> 00:36:23,125
And I guess the risk willingness to say, do you know what?

861
00:36:23,125 --> 00:36:24,845
You might mess it up, but it, it's,

862
00:36:24,915 --> 00:36:26,645
it's all right if you do.

863
00:36:27,025 --> 00:36:29,725
Um, I, I would put that bang in the middle of, um,

864
00:36:30,805 --> 00:36:31,805
anywhere I would ever want to work.

865
00:36:31,945 --> 00:36:34,205
How do I know I'm going to be given that flexibility

866
00:36:34,265 --> 00:36:37,445
to do a great job without someone stifling that?

867
00:36:37,705 --> 00:36:39,405
See, I don't think you see the, the culture

868
00:36:39,425 --> 00:36:41,205
of an organisation from the outside.

869
00:36:41,405 --> 00:36:42,925
I think it's really hard. I think

870
00:36:43,525 --> 00:36:45,925
companies can be particularly good at presenting an image

871
00:36:45,925 --> 00:36:48,845
of themselves as of veneer of having a really good culture.

872
00:36:49,585 --> 00:36:50,685
The world is different now as well

873
00:36:50,805 --> 00:36:52,885
because we have things like Glassdoor

874
00:36:53,065 --> 00:36:56,605
and we have like, it's much easier to know about the culture

875
00:36:56,625 --> 00:36:59,125
of an organisation externally than

876
00:36:59,125 --> 00:37:00,205
it was perhaps in the past.

877
00:37:00,505 --> 00:37:04,325
And I think that reputationally, I think that you do,

878
00:37:04,325 --> 00:37:05,725
particularly when you're in a small sector,

879
00:37:05,805 --> 00:37:08,045
I think you do get to hear about good

880
00:37:08,065 --> 00:37:11,285
and bad, um, organisations that you were,

881
00:37:11,285 --> 00:37:12,965
that you could potentially end up working in.

882
00:37:13,175 --> 00:37:17,085
There was a story not so long back of a, um, millennial

883
00:37:17,705 --> 00:37:21,085
who went into a job, got through like five rounds

884
00:37:21,085 --> 00:37:23,005
of interviews and it was the final, you know,

885
00:37:23,005 --> 00:37:24,485
this was it, the job was theirs.

886
00:37:25,065 --> 00:37:28,925
And um, and then they just said to the guy behind the desk,

887
00:37:29,035 --> 00:37:31,325
well, but none of this, um,

888
00:37:31,835 --> 00:37:34,685
furniture looks like it's been ecologically sourced.

889
00:37:35,505 --> 00:37:36,925
Um, how do you respond to that?

890
00:37:37,785 --> 00:37:39,925
And there was no answer from behind the desk

891
00:37:40,185 --> 00:37:42,005
and the, the person didn't take the job.

892
00:37:44,065 --> 00:37:47,325
Are they expecting this was a company

893
00:37:47,325 --> 00:37:49,285
that had absolutely nothing to do

894
00:37:49,285 --> 00:37:51,045
with ecological furniture at all?

895
00:37:51,065 --> 00:37:53,885
Mm-Hmm. But you didn't think it matched their values. Yeah.

896
00:37:53,885 --> 00:37:56,085
Yeah. Is that a ridiculous decision to make?

897
00:37:56,225 --> 00:37:57,845
Who, who's side lean on that? I

898
00:37:57,845 --> 00:37:59,005
Think that you can judge that personal making,

899
00:37:59,265 --> 00:38:00,365
that's a decision for them.

900
00:38:00,885 --> 00:38:01,925
I think there is an argument

901
00:38:01,945 --> 00:38:04,685
of knowing which values you align yourself with.

902
00:38:04,985 --> 00:38:08,925
If that company states very clearly this is important

903
00:38:08,945 --> 00:38:11,645
to us and this is one of the, you know, five,

904
00:38:11,705 --> 00:38:12,965
six things in our strategic plan,

905
00:38:13,025 --> 00:38:14,765
and then he ask that question says, no,

906
00:38:15,125 --> 00:38:16,845
I would absolutely walk away from that business

907
00:38:16,915 --> 00:38:18,765
because then it's veneer then,

908
00:38:18,765 --> 00:38:20,285
then it's not about what quite

909
00:38:24,155 --> 00:38:28,085
Dear d And on that note, Ching,

910
00:38:29,465 --> 00:38:30,605
Um, thank you.

911
00:38:31,425 --> 00:38:34,285
Thanks guys for tackling such important

912
00:38:34,745 --> 00:38:38,565
and let's be honest, emotional subjects today, Lou Doyle

913
00:38:38,665 --> 00:38:40,485
and Sally Forsyth of Mesma.

914
00:38:41,585 --> 00:38:45,445
So I agree that the dial is shifting on female-dominated

915
00:38:45,695 --> 00:38:48,845
workforces, the growing focus on gender pay gaps

916
00:38:48,865 --> 00:38:52,165
and with it the needs and benefits of working moms,

917
00:38:52,945 --> 00:38:54,845
the impact of the menopause

918
00:38:54,905 --> 00:38:57,645
that's also filtering into employment conversations.

919
00:38:58,265 --> 00:39:01,285
But the challenge that's only gonna grow is that

920
00:39:01,345 --> 00:39:02,645
of parental care.

921
00:39:03,105 --> 00:39:04,765
How everyone, not just women

922
00:39:05,345 --> 00:39:07,885
can be at their best at work whilst meeting the needs

923
00:39:07,885 --> 00:39:09,405
of their own elderly parents.

924
00:39:09,875 --> 00:39:13,725
Because this is a talent pool nobody can afford to lose.

925
00:39:14,545 --> 00:39:17,325
So however, and wherever you are listening

926
00:39:17,325 --> 00:39:19,685
or watching both sides of the desk, thank you.

927
00:39:20,115 --> 00:39:21,605
This is all about sharing ideas

928
00:39:21,665 --> 00:39:24,565
to create a more positive work culture for everyone.

929
00:39:24,905 --> 00:39:26,205
So please subscribe to the podcast

930
00:39:26,465 --> 00:39:28,165
and share it with your friends and colleagues.

931
00:39:28,915 --> 00:39:32,365
Data shows that positive work culture boosts productivity,

932
00:39:32,995 --> 00:39:35,845
reduces staff turnover and makes people happier.

933
00:39:36,385 --> 00:39:38,525
What's not to love? Well, we'd love you

934
00:39:38,625 --> 00:39:40,005
to join the conversation too.

935
00:39:40,235 --> 00:39:43,045
Drop us a message on the socials for Newcastle Helix,

936
00:39:43,045 --> 00:39:45,925
whether that's LinkedIn, X, Facebook, Instagram,

937
00:39:46,065 --> 00:39:47,485
or the YouTube channel.

938
00:39:48,185 --> 00:39:50,245
We are all about collaboration here.

939
00:39:50,385 --> 00:39:53,365
So on that note, this video podcast was filmed with the help

940
00:39:53,365 --> 00:39:56,125
of the incredible team at The Lumen building on the

941
00:39:56,125 --> 00:39:57,685
Newcastle Helix site.

942
00:39:57,985 --> 00:40:01,285
It was filmed and directed by Chris Taylor, filmed

943
00:40:01,285 --> 00:40:03,525
and edited by Jordan McDonald, mixed

944
00:40:03,525 --> 00:40:06,565
and mastered by Andy at Blast Studios and produced

945
00:40:06,585 --> 00:40:09,005
and presented by me, Charlie Charlton.

946
00:40:09,345 --> 00:40:12,685
The concept emerged in collaboration with Di Gates

947
00:40:12,785 --> 00:40:13,845
of Connection Heroes.

948
00:40:14,075 --> 00:40:16,765
This is a development program all about the value

949
00:40:16,865 --> 00:40:18,885
of human connection at work.

950
00:40:19,425 --> 00:40:22,045
So, coming up in the next episode of Both Sides of the Desk,

951
00:40:22,585 --> 00:40:24,285
You've probably heard this phrase now,

952
00:40:24,345 --> 00:40:27,245
but in Newcastle we have a phrase, "shy bairns get nowt".

953
00:40:27,965 --> 00:40:30,125
I am a cheeky boy, um,

954
00:40:30,835 --> 00:40:33,325
From the happy team here at Newcastle Helix.

955
00:40:33,745 --> 00:40:34,525
See you next time.